Woz Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, e16bball said: But I'm with you — this guy was a consensus top 2-3 QB, and he was viewed by pretty much everyone as a likely top 10-15 pick (if not higher). Any suggestion that he wasn’t considered a legit 1st round selection isn’t fairly depicting the public opinion at the time of the draft. All of the draft discussion back in April was that Haskins fell into Washington's lap and that he was a steal. So, yeah, most had him as a 1st round pick. Now, he could be a first round projection and still be a project due to his lack of starts (and the ineptitude of the coaching staff in Washington). There's no guarantee he succeeds. That said, I'm not sure how you pull a Rosen and cut bait on him right now. Maybe we will change our minds by the end of the season (since Washington has committed to riding Haskins as the starter for the rest of the way). Who knows? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 The thing that sorta gets glossed over about doing the “Kyler Murray” is that you’re giving up a truly elite player in order to potentially upgrade your QB prospect. If it’s just a question of saying, “nah, don’t want Haskins, rather have Burrow instead,” that’s one thing. But you have to understand that it’s not Haskins for Burrow, it’s Haskins and Chase Young for Burrow and maybe a 2nd round pick (that you’d get back for Haskins in trade). In the Cardinals case, it’s Rosen and Nick Bosa for Murray and Andy Isabella. In other words, in order to go from Rosen to Kyler, they had to give up an absolute stud who looks like an All-World pass-rusher/obvious DROY and got back a 5’10 slot receiver with 6 catches through his first half-season. Maybe it’s worth it, because Rosen is awful and Kyler looks promising. But you better be DAMN sure about both players if you’re gonna pay that price to “upgrade.” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, e16bball said: The thing that sorta gets glossed over about doing the “Kyler Murray” is that you’re giving up a truly elite player in order to potentially upgrade your QB prospect. If it’s just a question of saying, “nah, don’t want Haskins, rather have Burrow instead,” that’s one thing. But you have to understand that it’s not Haskins for Burrow, it’s Haskins and Chase Young for Burrow and maybe a 2nd round pick (that you’d get back for Haskins in trade). In the Cardinals case, it’s Rosen and Nick Bosa for Murray and Andy Isabella. In other words, in order to go from Rosen to Kyler, they had to give up an absolute stud who looks like an All-World pass-rusher/obvious DROY and got back a 5’10 slot receiver with 6 catches through his first half-season. Maybe it’s worth it, because Rosen is awful and Kyler looks promising. But you better be DAMN sure about both players if you’re gonna pay that price to “upgrade.” If I may perhaps summarize, "multi-draft BPA evaluation?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, e16bball said: The thing that sorta gets glossed over about doing the “Kyler Murray” is that you’re giving up a truly elite player in order to potentially upgrade your QB prospect. If it’s just a question of saying, “nah, don’t want Haskins, rather have Burrow instead,” that’s one thing. But you have to understand that it’s not Haskins for Burrow, it’s Haskins and Chase Young for Burrow and maybe a 2nd round pick (that you’d get back for Haskins in trade). In the Cardinals case, it’s Rosen and Nick Bosa for Murray and Andy Isabella. In other words, in order to go from Rosen to Kyler, they had to give up an absolute stud who looks like an All-World pass-rusher/obvious DROY and got back a 5’10 slot receiver with 6 catches through his first half-season. Maybe it’s worth it, because Rosen is awful and Kyler looks promising. But you better be DAMN sure about both players if you’re gonna pay that price to “upgrade.” Love how you broke that down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 It's laughable that anyone can see Haskins now and say he's a first round pick. The early scouting reports were dead on about him. It just got lost in the hype that was his last year. I don't think they will give up on Haskins, largely because it was dictated by the owner. Just like the last time the owner dictated a draft pick for a quarterback, the next coach will be have to be willing to mold Haskins into an NFL QB. It will take several seasons to finally give up on that. So the question we should be asking is Thomas, Young, Okudah, or Jeudy at number 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSkinGM Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 13 hours ago, e16bball said: The thing that sorta gets glossed over about doing the “Kyler Murray” is that you’re giving up a truly elite player in order to potentially upgrade your QB prospect. If it’s just a question of saying, “nah, don’t want Haskins, rather have Burrow instead,” that’s one thing. But you have to understand that it’s not Haskins for Burrow, it’s Haskins and Chase Young for Burrow and maybe a 2nd round pick (that you’d get back for Haskins in trade). In the Cardinals case, it’s Rosen and Nick Bosa for Murray and Andy Isabella. In other words, in order to go from Rosen to Kyler, they had to give up an absolute stud who looks like an All-World pass-rusher/obvious DROY and got back a 5’10 slot receiver with 6 catches through his first half-season. Maybe it’s worth it, because Rosen is awful and Kyler looks promising. But you better be DAMN sure about both players if you’re gonna pay that price to “upgrade.” This is brilliant- Never considered the other aspects of passing up a guy like Bosa . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Slateman said: It's laughable that anyone can see Haskins now and say he's a first round pick. The early scouting reports were dead on about him. It just got lost in the hype that was his last year. I don't think they will give up on Haskins, largely because it was dictated by the owner. I guess you'd rather follow the Browns' model? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Slateman said: It's laughable that anyone can see Haskins now and say he's a first round pick. The early scouting reports were dead on about him. It just got lost in the hype that was his last year. I don't think they will give up on Haskins, largely because it was dictated by the owner. Just like the last time the owner dictated a draft pick for a quarterback, the next coach will be have to be willing to mold Haskins into an NFL QB. It will take several seasons to finally give up on that. So the question we should be asking is Thomas, Young, Okudah, or Jeudy at number 2? How is it laughable and what early scouting reports are you referring too? Nearly every draft analyst and former QB had him pegged as a first round talent. The only guys I know of that said he wasn’t were Sheehan and Cooley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said: I guess you'd rather follow the Browns' model? Pretty much. In this instance, it appears to be: 1. Clamor for a new young QB with great potential and upside 2. Draft raw, inexperienced QB with great potential and upside 3. Force raw, inexperienced QB onto the field early in his young career 4. Grow frustrated with the fact that QB appears to be raw and inexperienced 5. Declare him “not an actual” 1st round pick when he proves too raw and inexperienced to immediately be a competitive NFL QB 6. Begin exploring franchise-crippling methods to move on from said young QB with great potential and upside to another young QB with great potential and upside Someone should probably try to reach out to Peyton Manning (64.5 rating through first 8 starts; 1-7 record in those starts), Eli Manning (56.0 rating; 2-6), Carson Palmer (66.3 rating; 3-5), Alex Smith (49.5 rating; 2-6), Matthew Stafford (66.9 rating; 2-6), Drew Bledsoe (54.8 rating; 1-7), and Jared Goff (70.4 rating; 1-7) to let them know that despite the fact that they were all drafted #1 overall, they’re no longer going to be considered “1st round QBs” because they didn’t appear ready to be competitive NFL QBs by the halfway point of their first seasons. Edited November 12, 2019 by e16bball 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, lavar703 said: How is it laughable and what early scouting reports are you referring too? Nearly every draft analyst and former QB had him pegged as a first round talent. The only guys I know of that said he wasn’t were Sheehan and Cooley. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2773297-2019-nfl-mock-draft-matt-millers-way-too-early-predictions https://www.nj.com/eagles/2018/04/early_2019_nfl_mock_draft_will_joey_bosas_brother_go_no_1_wh.html https://draftwire.usatoday.com/gallery/2019-nfl-mock-draft-way-too-early-2-round-projections/ https://www.elevenwarriors.com/skull-sessions/2019/02/102727/ohio-state-football-dwayne-haskins-second-round-ryan-day-emphasize-passing-game-early-heisman-trophy-odds https://theathletic.com/838678/2019/02/27/dwayne-haskins-grade-nfl-draft/ No one knew who this guy was before last season. A lot of people thought he was overrated. Edited November 12, 2019 by Slateman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSkinGM Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, e16bball said: Pretty much. In this instance, it appears to be: 1. Clamor for a new young QB with great potential and upside 2. Draft raw, inexperienced QB with great potential and upside 3. Force raw, inexperienced QB onto the field early in his young career 4. Grow frustrated with the fact that QB appears to be raw and inexperienced 5. Declare him “not an actual” 1st round pick when he proves too raw and inexperienced to immediately be a competitive NFL QB 6. Begin exploring franchise-crippling methods to move on from said young QB with great potential and upside to another young QB with great potential and upside Someone should probably try to reach out to Peyton Manning (64.5 rating through first 8 starts; 1-7 record in those starts), Eli Manning (56.0 rating; 2-6), Carson Palmer (66.3 rating; 3-5), Alex Smith (49.5 rating; 2-6), Matthew Stafford (66.9 rating; 2-6), Drew Bledsoe (54.8 rating; 1-7), and Jared Goff (70.4 rating; 1-7) to let them know that despite the fact that they were all drafted #1 overall, they’re no longer going to be considered “1st round QBs” because they didn’t appear ready to be competitive NFL QBs by the halfway point of their first seasons. Interesting stats -- what about Aikman-how did he do ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Slateman said: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2773297-2019-nfl-mock-draft-matt-millers-way-too-early-predictions https://www.nj.com/eagles/2018/04/early_2019_nfl_mock_draft_will_joey_bosas_brother_go_no_1_wh.html https://draftwire.usatoday.com/gallery/2019-nfl-mock-draft-way-too-early-2-round-projections/ https://www.elevenwarriors.com/skull-sessions/2019/02/102727/ohio-state-football-dwayne-haskins-second-round-ryan-day-emphasize-passing-game-early-heisman-trophy-odds https://theathletic.com/838678/2019/02/27/dwayne-haskins-grade-nfl-draft/ No one knew who this guy was before last season. A lot of people thought he was overrated. Of course nobody knew who he was lol. He hadn’t started meaningful games yet. Who’s a lot of people? Some random dude who writes for the athletic? All of the top analysts had him as a first rounder. Maybe they were wrong and Haskins shouldn’t have been but you’re clearly trying to re-write history here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, Slateman said: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2773297-2019-nfl-mock-draft-matt-millers-way-too-early-predictions https://www.nj.com/eagles/2018/04/early_2019_nfl_mock_draft_will_joey_bosas_brother_go_no_1_wh.html https://draftwire.usatoday.com/gallery/2019-nfl-mock-draft-way-too-early-2-round-projections/ https://www.elevenwarriors.com/skull-sessions/2019/02/102727/ohio-state-football-dwayne-haskins-second-round-ryan-day-emphasize-passing-game-early-heisman-trophy-odds https://theathletic.com/838678/2019/02/27/dwayne-haskins-grade-nfl-draft/ No one knew who this guy was before last season. A lot of people thought he was overrated. I agree with you, but Burrow is the same way. No one had this guy as a first round pick before this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, lavar703 said: Of course nobody knew who he was lol. He hadn’t started meaningful games yet. Who’s a lot of people? Some random dude who writes for the athletic? All of the top analysts had him as a first rounder. Maybe they were wrong and Haskins shouldn’t have been but you’re clearly trying to re-write history here. I think teams drafting QBs with only a year's starting experience in the first round is a pretty new trend though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, RSkinGM said: Interesting stats -- what about Aikman-how did he do ? He was before the time frame I utilized, but he had a 59.0 rating and 0-8 record in his first 8 starts. He actually had a great game against the Rams in his 8th start that is inflating those numbers — his rating was 51.6 (with 4 TDs and 12 INTs) prior to that game. In fairness, that was a long time ago, and passer rating stats don’t translate well between eras. But his rating that season was 74% of league average, which in 2018 would have equated to about a 70 passer rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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