If you didn't think Joe Burrow was a 1st rounder last year, why would you think he's one this year?

[Ragnarok]

Burrow had some throws this season that would be impressive from Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, etc.  True gorgeous anticipation throws.  You can't teach that.

[MagicMT]

3 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

Burrow had some throws this season that would be impressive from Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, etc.  True gorgeous anticipation throws.  You can't teach that.

Yes I agree. And that's more imporant than a fast 3-cone drills or a blazing 40yds dash. The guy's a QB and his best way to win a championship is to be good at throwing the ball. 
With AJ Green, Boyd, Ross (if/when healthy), Tate and good depth I could see him having a really good transition to the NFL. That's an above-average set of WRs right there. 

[Jlowe22]

I don't see how you can watch this game tonight and think accuracy is a buzzword.  

[Ragnarok]

1 minute ago, MagicMT said:

Yes I agree. And that's more imporant than a fast 3-cone drills or a blazing 40yds dash. The guy's a QB and his best way to win a championship is to be good at throwing the ball. 
With AJ Green, Boyd, Ross (if/when healthy), Tate and good depth I could see him having a really good transition to the NFL. That's an above-average set of WRs right there. 

Ok...so he has Mixon and Boyd.  Green is old and done.  Ross is trash.  Tate might be solid.  

Burrow, then Kmet, then the best OL or WR.

That should be a dream for Cinci.  Plus they get Jonah and Corey, both of whom they had for a combined 4 games all year?

[VanS]

44 minutes ago, Fureys49ers said:

Would love to hear from @VanS? Not even in a vindictive or a “we told you” type of way,  just want to hear his take on this game/season? Traits? Intangibles? 

Have you not read this thread?  I've made my views clear.  I was actually rooting for LSU tonight (cause I'm a SEC fan).  I'm not one of these guys that roots against guys who I think are overrated.  Especially in college.  To me collegiate team success is close to irrelevant.

I rate players based on traits.  And I do it very early on.  My rule of thumb is this:  If you don't jump out the first time I watch you play, then you're probably not that good.  Even when great players have bad games by their standards they will still nonetheless flash their transcendent talent.  When I first watched Joe Burrow he flashed no transcendent talent.  And even this year and this game I didn't see anything that WOWED me to make me rethink my initial analysis.  I believe Burrow's success this season is due more to the new scheme and the talent around him more than his own talent.

We'll see he does in the NFL.  Because that is where we'll see just how good he really is.

[Ragnarok]

1 minute ago, VanS said:

Have you not read this thread?  I've made my views clear.  I was actually rooting for LSU tonight (cause I'm a SEC fan).  I'm not one of these guys that roots against guys who I think are overrated.  Especially in college.  To me collegiate team success is close to irrelevant.

I rate players based on traits.  And I do it very early on.  My rule of thumb is this:  If you don't jump out the first time I watch you play, then you're probably not that good.  Even when great players have bad games by their standards they will still nonetheless flash their transcendent talent.  When I first watched Joe Burrow he flashed no transcendent talent.  And even this year and this game I didn't see anything that WOWED me to make me rethink my initial analysis.  I believe Burrow's success this season is due more to the new scheme and the talent around him more than his own talent.

We'll see he does in the NFL.  Because that is where we'll see just how good he really is.

So let's say that Burrow becomes an elite-level QB.

Where you do you think you will have been wrong?  What did you miss?  What do you think you didn't see?

[VanS]

40 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

As soon as he jumped on board Trevor fell off a cliff.

I've been high on Trevor Lawrence since his first collegiate game as a true freshmen last year.  I immediately compared him to Peyton Manning.  Just with a stronger arm and more athleticism.  With that said, I don't think Trevor is the greatest QB prospect ever (even though theoretically a Peyton Manning with a stronger arm and more athleticism would mean the greatest QB prospect ever).  The thing is that even though I compare him to Peyton, I don't know if he's as good mentally as Peyton was.  Peyton was on another level when it came to the mental aspect of the game.  That is what made him so good.  The Peyton Manning comp comes more from a resemblance in terms of how they look and how they are built (in college).  Obviously Peyton thickened up as he aged.

I think Trevor will be a great NFL QB but I don't think he'll be the best.

[stl4life07]

16 minutes ago, MagicMT said:

Yes I agree. And that's more imporant than a fast 3-cone drills or a blazing 40yds dash. The guy's a QB and his best way to win a championship is to be good at throwing the ball. 
With AJ Green, Boyd, Ross (if/when healthy), Tate and good depth I could see him having a really good transition to the NFL. That's an above-average set of WRs right there. 

Just thinking about Burrow throwing to AJ Green has a big smile on my face because Im a big Green fan and I love Burrow. I think if Green gets back healthy he could have a big season. I remember when Reggie Wayne looked washed up the year before the Colts drafted Luck. Then when the Colts got the 1st overall pick and took Luck that season Wayne had a big year with Luck and looked like he did when he had Peyton. So I think if Green is still with the Bengals (assuming they dont trade him), I think Green will thrive with Burrow big time and its going to be instantly. So Im looking at Green in all my fantasy leagues as a steal if Burrow goes to the Bengals and Green is still with the Bengals and healthy. 

[VanS]

19 minutes ago, MagicMT said:

Now, after winning the NC against a way better defense, did Joe Burrow elevated his stock with his UNEXPECTED rushing performance of 60yds and a TD (never mind he threw for 5TD and 450yds)? I mean, I get that elite traits are definitely a plus for any prospect/player but how can you not be impressed by Burrow? Not even talking about the stats (top 10 CFB season easily) but what about him going through his progressions quickly, making good decisions, having very good pocket movement and escape ability, having absolute pin-point accuracy (probably the most important trait in a QB, no?)? Those are the most important attributes for a QB, not elite physical traits. 
I am very confident Joe Burrow will become a better NFL QB than Josh Allen, despite not having as strong of an arm and despite not running as fast. 
I know it's just opinions and I really don't want to be seen as attacking you or anything, I just find it strange that someone could put so much stock into last year (yeah, he wasn't the best, probably not even a 1st round pick) but discredit the actual/most recent season where he just looked like the best pocket QB in CFB, whith a set of skills that translates really well in the NFL. 

I doubt he's ever as good as Josh Allen.  But the good thing about sports is we'll all get to find out soon.  With that said, I'm a guy who goes by first impressions and I also look for different things than most people when looking at prospects.

For example, one of the first tapes I ever watched on Josh Allen last year was the game against Iowa.  Statistically he had an awful game and his performances against big schools was one of his biggest knocks.  I actually went into the Josh Allen tape looking to not like him.  He totally converted me with just one throw.  When I saw the velocity and accuracy he threw the 15 yard out route from the opposite hash I was blown away.  I'd never seen an arm like that.  Then I saw him scramble and run and was similarly impressed.  It didn't take but a few snaps for me to go from being skeptical and dismissive to incredibly impressed.  That's how I evaluate players.  I don't look at their stats.  I don't even look at the entire game.  I don't care about stuff like that.  I care about their individual ability.  How good is this guy if I give him crappy teammates and bad coaching?  Can he carry a team on his back?  Or is he the type of guy who needs others around him to look good?

This is why Joe Burrow's performance tonight or this season doesn't move me.  I see a guy executing a great scheme with outstanding teammates around him.  What will happen when he doesn't have a genius like Joe Brady designing plays for him or a trio of receivers better than any other trio in the country?  Can he still look like the best QB in the country?  That's left to be seen.  Given his mediocre physical attributes I'm gonna go with no.  I don't think he will be that great in the NFL.  Can he be a serviceable starter?  Sure.  But elite?  No way.

[MagicMT]

5 minutes ago, VanS said:

 Peyton was on another level when it came to the mental aspect of the game.  That is what made him so good. 

That's absolutely correct.
But what if Joe Burrow is phenomenal in that aspect of the game too? Would it change your evaluation of him? 

12 minutes ago, VanS said:

I believe Burrow's success this season is due more to the new scheme and the talent around him more than his own talent.

Time will tell, but you could say that about the majority of the players in the NFL and it's a really hard thing to gauge. It's not like all his passes went to unguarded WRs or were just dump offs behind the LOS 

[VanS]

20 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

I don't see how you can watch this game tonight and think accuracy is a buzzword.  

Ever heard of Baker Mayfield?

[Fureys49ers]

22 minutes ago, VanS said:

Have you not read this thread?  I've made my views clear.  I was actually rooting for LSU tonight (cause I'm a SEC fan).  I'm not one of these guys that roots against guys who I think are overrated.  Especially in college.  To me collegiate team success is close to irrelevant.

I rate players based on traits.  And I do it very early on.  My rule of thumb is this:  If you don't jump out the first time I watch you play, then you're probably not that good.  Even when great players have bad games by their standards they will still nonetheless flash their transcendent talent.  When I first watched Joe Burrow he flashed no transcendent talent.  And even this year and this game I didn't see anything that WOWED me to make me rethink my initial analysis.  I believe Burrow's success this season is due more to the new scheme and the talent around him more than his own talent.

We'll see he does in the NFL.  Because that is where we'll see just how good he really is.

I’ve read some of it, don’t have that much time to kill to read all of it. Interesting though....will be fun to see if making Initial reads off of kids who are 18/19 years old and locking them into what they are and are not for the rest of their careers proves fruitful for you. 
 

One thing I will dispute a tad is the benefit of coaching and talent around him. Not in the way you might think though. I agree that the scheme and coaching change in LSU has brought about a dramatic change on the offense. Where people lose me is why is this a knock? So you’re telling me a college QB can understand, execute, and flourish (inside of the scheme and also when things break down on any given down) in a very pro style scheme, game plan and information platform and this is a knock on him? Isn’t that usually why we don’t see a true QBs talent in the NFL for at least a couple years? Cause they’re still learning how to do what Joe has been doing for a year already, having proven extremely successful at it? Now some might argue that because of this NFL like scheme that they are far more advanced and college defenses aren’t caught up to it so there’s an advantage there. Sure, that’s valid but the guys just destroyed very good defenses littered with NFL talent, I think it was seven top 10 teams they played this year or some ridiculous number. He’s done it to everyone, game in and game out, and produced at level unheard of. He’s not just getting by, he’s making the top programs and the top level of talent that feeds the NFL and then becomes the next “great” players of the NFL look silly and outmatched completely. 
 

As far as the talent around him goes, unless I’m mistaken, aren’t all these players the same players he had last year? I didn’t hear much about all of the LSU talent then. I’m curious as to what changed. Could it be that the scheme is helping them as well? Why isn’t this a knock on them? Is every player on LSUs offense already guaranteed to be a good player in the NFL? Are the defenses they have gone up against not loaded with NFL talent as well?

Edited January 14, 2020 by Fureys49ers

[MagicMT]

3 minutes ago, VanS said:

I doubt he's ever as good as Josh Allen.  But the good thing about sports is we'll all get to find out soon.  With that said, I'm a guy who goes by first impressions and I also look for different things than most people when looking at prospects.

For example, one of the first tapes I ever watched on Josh Allen last year was the game against Iowa.  Statistically he had an awful game and his performances against big schools was one of his biggest knocks.  I actually went into the Josh Allen tape looking to not like him.  He totally converted me with just one throw.  When I saw the velocity and accuracy he threw the 15 yard out route from the opposite hash I was blown away.  I'd never seen an arm like that.  Then I saw him scramble and run and was similarly impressed.  It didn't take but a few snaps for me to go from being skeptical and dismissive to incredibly impressed.  That's how I evaluate players.  I don't look at their stats.  I don't even look at the entire game.  I don't care about stuff like that.  I care about their individual ability.  How good is this guy if I give him crappy teammates and bad coaching?  Can he carry a team on his back?  Or is he the type of guy who needs others around him to look good?

This is why Joe Burrow's performance tonight or this season doesn't move me.  I see a guy executing a great scheme with outstanding teammates around him.  What will happen when he doesn't have a genius like Joe Brady designing plays for him or a trio of receivers better than any other trio in the country?  Can he still look like the best QB in the country?  That's left to be seen.  Given his mediocre physical attributes I'm gonna go with no.  I don't think he will be that great in the NFL.  Can he be a serviceable starter?  Sure.  But elite?  No way.

I get what you're saying. And it is true that Josh Allen has ENORMOUS potential and one of the best arm in the NFL right now. 
Thing is, for every WOW play he makes, he will miss a routine play a drive later in the same game. Maybe it is coachable, maybe it's not. 
And that's the point. Maybe Josh Allen is physically way more impressive than most other NFL QBs, and maybe he oozes potential and greatness when he throws the ball 60yds downfield, but if he can't constantly hit his receivers and go through his progressions then he is just not a top tier QB. 
(BTW I love Josh Allen I just don't think that physical traits are not as important when it comes to the QB position). 

[VanS]

14 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

So let's say that Burrow becomes an elite-level QB.

Where you do you think you will have been wrong?  What did you miss?  What do you think you didn't see?

We'll see when we get there.  I've acknowledged when I've been wrong about players before.  Right now the only success I see for Joe Burrow in the NFL is that fake short term success we see from QBs before the league figures them out (i.e Jared Goff, Baker Mayfield, etc.).  If he turns out to be a great player that is consistently great then I'll have to see how he does it.   I never make judgments on things I have yet to see.

[Fureys49ers]

11 minutes ago, VanS said:

Ever heard of Baker Mayfield?

So one young QB has an off year and the complete meaning, existence and usage of a word means nothing to you? Haha the way in which you see football and more than likely the world is so black and white, so limiting and skewed it’s insane. 
 

Most of this was unnecessary, my b. I’m just boggled with the thought process, or lack there of, behind it. I think that concludes my time here head butting this wall.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Fureys49ers