Butler

[3rivers]

He deserves some credit. He now has some talent , and his defence is the main reason this team is winning.  I am not sure he has the talent LeBeau had but it's getting there because we have DB's that can catch  Before, Troy was about the only one, but this secondary has a few hawks thats for sure.  Editing this, William Gay also could catch some Int's, seemed to have a habit of getting TD's as well. We aren't forgetting about that , especially with him being on the staff now as well

The 4 man front is the pressure that OL's are having problems with.  The secondary is the beneficiary and the scheme is suitable for both, Butler is getting this going really good. I'm not seeing too many 3 many rushes or dropping Watt and Dupree into coverage either. No more slow ILB covering the WR1 and not sure how he did it , but today took away the rams top weapon Kupp

Watt and Minkah battling for DPOY in december  

It would be nice if they could keep this defence together for a few years. Ben had all the weapons and cap spent on offence, how about let the defence win for a while. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by 3rivers

[mwalker]

Agree. I think we'll have to choose between Bud and Hargrave. Hopefully not lose both.

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, mwalker said:

Agree. I think we'll have to choose between Bud and Hargrave. Hopefully not lose both.

what about trading pouncey and keeping both?  I would prefer trading ben too, maybe that will happen if this group keeps winning but unless that happens, ben will be here as long as colbert is.  Just watched some highlights, the Minkah TD, Hargrave just collapses the OL. He is downhill when it's a pass rush, actually might be more dominant than anyone on the team and that is saying something. Too bad he doesn't get more snaps, but it's good to have a rotation to keep players fresh. 

I have a feeling the Sack total will be 60+ and TO's will be 45+.  Looks as though we are at 26 TO's right now after 9 games, but 2 of those games were without Minkah, and many of these games were vs playoff teams. 

How about everyone take a shot at the Sack and TO total for the season after week 17? 

I am saying 64 sacks and 50 TO's, both records for the Steelers since 16 game schedule IIRC.

Edited November 11, 2019 by 3rivers

[mwalker]

1 hour ago, 3rivers said:

what about trading pouncey and keeping both?  I would prefer trading ben too, maybe that will happen if this group keeps winning but unless that happens, ben will be here as long as colbert is.  Just watched some highlights, the Minkah TD, Hargrave just collapses the OL. He is downhill when it's a pass rush, actually might be more dominant than anyone on the team and that is saying something. Too bad he doesn't get more snaps, but it's good to have a rotation to keep players fresh. 

I have a feeling the Sack total will be 60+ and TO's will be 45+.  Looks as though we are at 26 TO's right now after 9 games, but 2 of those games were without Minkah, and many of these games were vs playoff teams. 

How about everyone take a shot at the Sack and TO total for the season after week 17? 

I am saying 64 sacks and 50 TO's, both records for the Steelers since 16 game schedule IIRC.

Interesting.

I would trade Pouncey (based on performance and contract).

I don't think Colbert and Tomlin would. He's such a popular player.

If you did, you could keep Finney and draft another solid interior lineman in round two,
which we need anyway.

Not sure what you'd get for Pouncey...maybe a 3?

The issue with Hargrave isn't just fitting him under the cap, it's how
much you'd have invested in the DL proportionally. Likely too much.

[Chieferific]

The Defense sure seems like it made the turn after the Minkah trade. I know it can't be all him but something's different. Is Tomlin still calling plays?

[mwalker]

2 hours ago, Chieferific said:

The Defense sure seems like it made the turn after the Minkah trade. I know it can't be all him but something's different. Is Tomlin still calling plays?

I think it's quite a few things; Minkah is what we truly were missing as a centerfielder. 
That's given the entire unit a confidence boost and swagger - along with Watt going wild,
Dupree showing up, the DL going beast mode, Bush playing smart and fast, and the Nelson,
Haden, Hilton trio meshing. It's great to see. 

[VigilantZombie]

So, here is some roster cap info for next season..

Pouncey will be due a Roster bonus and signing bonus of 3M each. Trading or cutting him assuming both are guaranteed would mean a 6M cap hit but a $5M savings 

Cutting Ramon Foster would save $4M

Cutting Chickillo which is very likely to happen would save 4.5M

Cutting Barron would save about $2M

Cutting Vance McDonald could save nearly $6M as his 2020 and 2021 seasons are voidable.

Do the math, if we did all of those things, that is $21.5M

A couple restructures plus the cap increase....its not impossible to keep Dupree and Hargrave its just really unlikely. 

[43M]

4 hours ago, Chieferific said:

The Defense sure seems like it made the turn after the Minkah trade. I know it can't be all him but something's different. Is Tomlin still calling plays?

The defense showed a lot of promise last year, but lacked consistency and we had no playmakers who could force turnovers. Adding Minkah gave us the first legit safety we have had since Troy, the best playmaker we have had since Shazier went down, the centerfielder we have lacked....forever....and allows this defense to play more aggressive because his presence has transformed our secondary.

The addition of Minkah isn't the ONLY reason the defense is better, but it is the BIGGEST reason.

[3rivers]

10 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

A couple restructures plus the cap increase....its not impossible to keep Dupree and Hargrave its just really unlikely. 

What if this team goes far this year , would you consider trading Ben? That would only free up $8M but add that to the above and you are near $30M and that's without restructures.  Right now they are winning without ben, foster and you could say the pouncey from years back because he isn't what he was thats for sure. 

If dupree gets similar deal as the Smiths in GB, what would Hargrave get offered?

It's the reality of the nfl  in this era that teams have such roster turnover. This is where some good drafting helps and then some nice UFA signings to make sure.  

2 hours ago, mwalker said:

I think it's quite a few things; Minkah is what we truly were missing as a centerfielder. 
That's given the entire unit a confidence boost and swagger - along with Watt going wild,
Dupree showing up, the DL going beast mode, Bush playing smart and fast, and the Nelson,
Haden, Hilton trio meshing. It's great to see. 

Minkah is the real deal at FS, something this team has needed since Clark left, but Minkah is a better FS/ centerfielder. I liked Clark and a leader and punishing hitter, so for me to say this is quite telling as Clark was what I would call a throwback and a true steeler from the day. I never expected another Troy, but Minkah seems to be quite a DB thats for sure. Now make sure they keep the cap space aside for him and be set at FS for the next 10 years, thats 10 years and then some. 

With he FO having invested heavily on offence to appease ben and failing miserably, I hope they decide it's time to go back to defence and a running game. They have 2 capable QB's , so go with that and add the pieces accordingly.  Lets face it, ben had the most talent in the league for probably 5 yearsand still whined about the OC, and he finally got the OC he wanted and he is the worst! And what did they win? No SB appearances and the offence  never beat any legit playoff teams  in the playoffs and they were terrible vs the pats in the playoffs as usual.   If this current team had a half decent OC, these games wouldn't have been close, thats what really bothers me right now. 

They finally got talent on defence. They had Shazier, and while it was a loss, it was tiring listen to people go on about how his loss was that mush of a factor. The main issues were in the secondary, then Dupree wasn't as good as he is now,  the pass rush is much better with 4, and burns is off the field while Sutton and Nelson are legit. Haden is returning to his old form and then there is Minkah who will probably be DPOY thanks to the davis injury. Bush was a good pick, I know they gave up a bit to get him, but it might be worth it. Already much better than jarvis, hood and burns combined if you get that

5 hours ago, Chieferific said:

The Defense sure seems like it made the turn after the Minkah trade. I know it can't be all him but something's different. Is Tomlin still calling plays?

Maybe it is him and a scheme change adjustment. I don't even think they should bother blitzing anymore. Instead I would try to get Sutton out there more and get a few more Int's. This chart below is about as telling as it gets. However, the numbers need to be updated. Yes, VS the NFC champs, I think they were 1-12 on 3rd down yesterday and while they aren't the same team, it's quite a feat anyways.  Edmunds might be improving a bit, that was a nice play he made in the end zone IMO but his tackling still isn't right, a problem this team used to have that was sickening for years but appears almost corrected. 

As for Tomlin calling the defence, I think he finally has the type of players to run his type of defence, because this is much different than the Lebeau defence and I like this more. It's simplified (rooks or other new players can step in), the best pass rushers always rush, and it should hold up vs elite QB's .  Don't underestimate the importance of the FS though, as we are gladly learning.  

I would like to know the role Minkah had in eliminating Kupp from the game yesterday! I am sure he had something to do with it as the announcers said that Goff always located where Minkah was lined up  as soon as he got out of the huddle - that is   respect.   Where is kethnaab with the 2-2 breakdown   to explain what happened, someone find him because ethics is much better than in recent years. 

And that brings us to Minkah for DPOY if this keeps going on with approx 10 Ints, 5 FF and say a few more TD's

[Livewire]

The three additions of Nelson, Bush, and Minkah. are the reasons why the defense has improved majorly. Look at who they replaced. Also the D would even be better without Barron. 

[VigilantZombie]

I'd consider trading Ben period however he has a massive cap hit. The Steelers also disagree with me I'm sure.

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, wwhickok said:

I'd consider trading Ben period however he has a massive cap hit. The Steelers also disagree with me I'm sure.

it's not a grudge vs ben (a bit but not severe)  , but it's just that it never worked out despite all the talent he had on offence (elite OL for s few years, best RB and WR) . This team will win more with a legit defence and a running game, just the facts.  The offence will never approach the talent it had all those years, so why go that route, or even try to especially considering the talent won't compare?

[Duff]

5 hours ago, wwhickok said:

I'd consider trading Ben period however he has a massive cap hit. The Steelers also disagree with me I'm sure.

Why would we consider trading Ben? I get it we didn't win in the playoffs when we had a great offense but we didn't win because our defense was horrible in most of those games. We have won two Superbowls with Ben already and franchise QB's don't grow on trees so I would absolutely hold on to him and upgrade the offense and try to retain Dupree and Hargrave if we can. pounce hasn't been great this year but we don't know if he is hurt. Everybody wants to cut bait assuming replacement players are plug and play. We went through some bad years having poor centers and we are living with mediocre QB play right now. I would love to see what Ben can do next year having this defense. i think we need to go out and draft a fast wr to stretch the field and also try to get some more db's in the draft. I still think we have decent offensive line. Part of the reason the run game has been bad is because we pose no threat as an offense down field without Ben and Brown. Teams are stacking the box and daring us to throw. Rudolph isn't the answer at least not right now. He isn't the athlete that Ben was when he was younger and he definitely doesn't have Ben's mobility or accuracy and Ben isn't even one of the most accurate QB's. i say we ride ben until his arm falls off. hopefully that will be two more years and then we will rebuild the offense (QB and Line) and ride with a good defense and run game until we happen upon the next franchise QB.

 

[VigilantZombie]

People need to stop acting like Ben is even close to the player he used to be because he isnt and the fact he suffered a season ending elbow injury that isn't the result of contact should be really concerning.

[3rivers]

On 2019-11-12 at 8:11 PM, wwhickok said:

People need to stop acting like Ben is even close to the player he used to be because he isnt and the fact he suffered a season ending elbow injury that isn't the result of contact should be really concerning.

and Deion Sanders predicted ben wouldn't make it past week 5 was it? How did he know  Something not right about that, especially after remembering the history such as not liking the Mason pick, retiring, getting Haley run out/ getting his OC, it just never ends. I'm tired of it, in fact, if this team does good in 2019 , and the FO lets Hargrave and or Dupree go and they keep ben and pouncey, I might take a year off or wait until they are gone.  I prefer real defence and a running game,  and I can't see it happening  letting good/excellent DL go. They finally  have a top tier 4 DL Pass rush, and to let it go for older past their prime  overpaid players isn't something I am looking forward to especially after seeing what could have been. I never thought ben had a good season at all last year either,   but remember what colbert said about ben and the rest of the team being children? If Tomlin goes far with this team, perhaps he can tell rooney how it's going to be for now on .

Now this would be easy to accept if they actually let Mason throw more than 5 yards and the running game was legit, but I am expecting that as the season goes on. For now, get used to closer game and the defence controlling the wins as they keep winning.  There is a statement being made by coach T  that we aren't enjoying - we are winning with defence for now and will prove that for the rest of the season how good this defence is. Then near the end of the season,  the offence will start to open the playbook and look out . This is Tomlin's team finally,  or so it seems that way.

On 2019-11-12 at 7:50 PM, Duff said:

Why would we consider trading Ben?

if this team wins/ does good without him, why not move on and keep the pieces that are here but could be gone UFA?  Sure, ben has some football left, but will it be as good preinjury, and was that even good enough anyways? Maybe it's his legacy playing down to the competition, not Tomlin?