Has McVay been overrated?

[vikingsrule]

4 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

Wait, are you saying the OL is bad because it's not old enough (inexperienced) or too old? Because it's not that old. It was old last year maybe with Saffold and Sullivan. The ages of the starters week 1 were 37, 24, 23, 27, and 27.  And the 37 year old one is by far the best guy we have.

Both, last year they relied on Sullivan, Whitworth and Saffold. With age comes either a decline in play or the need to replace them. Obiviously, LA has work to do there but they had an old OL last year and a younger OL this year. 

[stl4life07]

This is how the best coaches in the NFL started the season the year after going to their first Superbowl:

Payton Saints started 6-3; finished 11-5 (playoffs)

Carroll Seahawks started 6-3; 12-4 they finished winning 6 straight games to end the season (playoffs)

Belichick Patriots started 5-4; finished 9-7

Reid Eagles started 4-5; finished 6-10 actually lost 4 straight games but I didnt add that.

Tomlin Steelers started 7-2; finished 10-6 (playoffs)

Pederson Eagles started 5-4; finished 9-7 (playoffs)

McVay with the Rams has started 5-4. Its very similar to those other coaches who again are great and what they had to experience coming off their first Superbowl appearance. We will see how the Rams will finish. Again the Rams sit in the 7th spot 1.5 back of the Vikings and 2 games back of the Seahawks with 7 games left to play. They are in great position for the playoffs if they can win. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by stl4life07

[TheVillain112]

Scheme doesn't matter if the OL sucks.  Rams and Bengals OL are two of the worst in the NFL this year, and subsequently their offenses looks like poop.  Unless you have a QB like Wilson or Watson that can buy extra time.  Those type of QBs are rare, most are like Goff.  There is no scheme that's going to make Goff look good without at least average protection: https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2019/10/02/rams-offensive-line-woes/

 

[Forge]

8 minutes ago, TheVillain112 said:

Scheme doesn't matter if the OL sucks

I mean, maybe to mere mortals like McVay. But SF is on their 4th and 5th tackles and still managed to do okay with Shanny 

[FrantikRam]

4 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

No, it was Jrry. Wasn't accusing you dude. 

I agree! I just object to the revisionism from some rams fans. We dared to question if he was as good as advertised (again, I do think he's quite good) and got stomped on, but now that it's become obvious he's not as good as some thought - the narrative has shifted to 'we won't know how good he is or isn't'. Smh. @Matts4313 in particular took flak for merely stating facts....

 

I had some hilariously bad takes on Goff (taking him over Watson for example) prior to this year - but I've never thought of him as a consistent top 10 QB. More like on the fringe waiting to bust through.

This year he hit that ceiling and came crashing down to earth though.

Right now he is a QB that needs perfect circumstances to be effective.

Letting Saffold walk and keeping Fowler is the first huge mistake Snead/McVay have made in terms of personnel. It's a mistake that might be compounded by the Ramsay trade, although he's an elite talent so I'll hold off on that for now. Admittedly, I was fine letting Saffold walk due to his age/injury history - but the plan to replace him has not panned out, and while Fowler is enjoying his best season, what we've gotten from Clay Matthews makes me think the defense would be only slightly worse without Fowler, while the offense could be the best in the NFL had Saffold been retained.

[TheVillain112]

7 minutes ago, Forge said:

I mean, maybe to mere mortals like McVay. But SF is on their 4th and 5th tackles and still managed to do okay with Shanny 

Shanny has the GOAT blocking scheme...

[Swift21]

7 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Goff is 25 years old. Anybody expecting a QB his age to be an elite guy who can transcend his circumstances had unrealistic expectations. We won't know what Goff is or isn't for another 3 to 5 years.

Quality interior OLs can be had outside the top 40 picks. We'll have the resources to address the problem.

It's a crapshoot your going to find quality QL outside the top 40 that's also ready to have an immediate impact.

[El Ramster]

I love it I want all the smoke. McVay start is better than any other HC in the history sans maybe the Don. Bb was garbage in Clev... I’m happy with the bro and he should be coaching for another 20+-30+.. 

 

Goff has been straight garbage this year no cap. Not even gonna defend him. Bad Oline or not he could play better.. I’m happy even if this is a down year! This is heaven compared to other teams.

Edited November 11, 2019 by ITS_RAMMY_PLAYBOI

[incognito_man]

just gonna drop this in here...

 

 

[Hunter2_1]

4 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

We already know what McVay is. He is a great coach but just like brilliant minds they can overthink things. 

Yes, I know. He's a great offensive mind, and deserves credit for how he is with players and people too. I don't know how you didn't pick up that sarcasm though  

[Magnifico]

4 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

Im sorry but this is exactly whats wrong with this society today. Give a guy too much credit too soon, then ready to take it away too soon. McVay is a great coach. He is no different that Payton. Payton has been with the Saints for 13 seasons now, has one Superbowl and the league basically said that was the Bountygate. Which btw in the NFCCG Vikings fans felt the same way that Saints fans feel in the NFCCG with the Rams. Since that Superbowl the Saints lost to (7-9) Seahawks, Smith when he was with the Niners, Seahawks again, went three straight seasons of (7-9), then lost to Keenum and the Vikings, then Goff and the Rams. I didnt even mention how the seasons before they won the Superbowl they lost to Grossman and the Bears then went (7-9) and (8-8). So write the narrative all you want about the Saints but take this for what its worth, McVay first 3 seasons so far with the Rams have been more successful than Payton first 3 seasons with the Saints AND overall its not like Payton has been killing it with the Saints looking at his track record but nobody will sit hear and say he is overrated. I think Payton is a great coach too and thought that when he signed with the Saints in 2006 and saw the instant turnaround. I find it actually funny someone would actually think McVay is overrated. The guy went to the playoffs in his first two seasons, right now the Rams sit in the 7th spot 1.5 game back of Minnesota out of the last wildcard spot. So even in a tough season for the Rams they still are in great position to get into the playoffs. Now have the Rams underachieved so far this season? Yes. But the main two goals for teams every season is win your division and if you cant do that just get into the playoffs. Doesnt look like the Rams will win the division but they are in great shape as we stand today to get into the playoffs because they are not that far behind the Vikings and even right there with the Seahawks whom they play again this season.

Now if we look at McVay from a pure coaching perspective again I think he is similar to Payton because just look at yesterday. My friend and I was talking and he was utterly disgusted the Saints only ran the ball 11 times. He said Payton went McVay and its funny because McVay didnt give Gurley a touch in the 4th quarter. Like Gurley started to get hot in the 2nd half and the Rams offense was moving and in a close game I dont know why McVay thought it was a good idea to not give Gurley the ball in crunch time? So to me some of McVay decisions especially when it comes to running the ball is puzzling. But again in terms of McVay being overrated, he isnt. Again I think it goes back to what I originally said in this society too quick to crown someone or too quick to bury someone. 

I was going to come in here to liken McVay to Payton, in that Payton had three 7-9 Seasons with a much better QB (and significantly worse defence, but thats on the HC). So a down-season isn't all that bad but some of the stuff you posted on Payton is horrific takes.

• "They lost to Grossman and the Bears". In his first year as HC. Their first playoff app in years. Against a fantastic defence away from home. That Bears team was the standout team in a down NFC that year, and it wasn't even close. They had 3 more wins than the 2 seed Saints.
• "They lost to Smith with the 49ers". It's absolutely egregious that their useless kick returner denied them a Superbowl appearance against the Pats in 2011. The 49ers were the best team in the league that year, and even then it took a final minute touchdown to win and they had 4 turnovers to help! They lost to a loaded defence.
• "Lost to Keenum and the Vikings". Marcus William stupidity is down in NFL Infamy for how bad it is. Your gonna blame the HC for that when they came back from that deficit @Minnesota? It'd be likely blaming Belicheck for Welkers woeful hands in 2011. Or Turner for Marlon McRee's stupidity/Nate Keading.
• "It's not like Payton has been killing it". Payton has a 0.619 winning percentage, with 125 Wins in 13 seasons. Only The Hoodie, Reid, Tomlin and Carroll have more wins . Only Tomlin and Belicheck have better win percentages. Payton has been killing it. He, Caroll, Tomlin and Harbaugh are all potentially HOF Coaches. He's absolutely been killing it. It's funny the criticism Payton, Tomlin and the others named get at times from their own fanbases, their friggin' fantastic coaches.
• How Tomlin and Payton do when they get their next QB's will probs define their HOF credentials. Something Carroll, Harbaugh and Reid look like having set for years to come.
• Don't get me wrong. Payton comes across as a douchebag. However he's a winning douchebag.

With regards to the topic. McVay isn't overrated, it's just never smooth sailing for coaches, and bar the Hoodie, no one chalks up 11+ wins every single year. Particularly when dealing with OL and Player Regression. Rams will be back, they're not out of the playoff picture this year either! McVay will learn from this year and come back stronger in the next. 10+ win is usually needed in the playoffs and some of the top coaches (I'd say those below are all consensus Top 10) have not done that every year.

• Payton has 10+ wins in 7 of 12 seasons
• Carroll has 10+ wins in 6 of 9
• Tomlin in 10+ wins in 8 of 12
• McCarthy has 10+ wins in 8 of 13.
• Reid has 10+ wins in 13 of 20.
• Jim Harbaugh has 10+ wins in 7 of 11.

Getting to 10 wins and the playoffs is hard in the NFL. Just because Brady and Belicheck make it look easy doesn't mean it going to be complete smooth sailing for everyone else. McVay's just not yet the next coming of Bill Walsh or The Hoodie, not yet anyway. 

As many have eluded to. Making sure Goff gets back to whatever he was last year (whether that's Top 10 or whatever it was, it was effective) is the most important problem to solved, as the franchise have hitched themselves to him.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Magnifico

[theJ]

2 hours ago, ITS_RAMMY_PLAYBOI said:

I love it I want all the smoke. McVay start is better than any other HC in the history sans maybe the Don. Bb was garbage in Clev... I’m happy with the bro and he should be coaching for another 20+-30+.. 

 

I thought i'd get you on Mike Tomlin, but through 41 games he's 1 game better than Tomlin (if we went 40 games, they'd be tied).

He's a good coach.  Needs to come up with a counter punch to the way defenses are playing them this year with the 6 man lines to take away the edge.  But he's going to be a HC in this league for a long time.

[Hunter2_1]

47 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

just gonna drop this in here...

 

 

Sweet. I've got one too

 

[theJ]

16 minutes ago, theJ said:

I thought i'd get you on Mike Tomlin, but through 41 games he's 1 game better than Tomlin (if we went 40 games, they'd be tied).

He's a good coach.  Needs to come up with a counter punch to the way defenses are playing them this year with the 6 man lines to take away the edge.  But he's going to be a HC in this league for a long time.

Just clicked through a few coaches on profootballreference.  Strictly talking more modern era, I think the only starts better (through two full seasons) are:

• John Madden
• Jim Harbaugh (beats out McVay by advantage of one tie over a loss)

If we want to include the guys from the 20's/30's, then you have these guys (and probably more, i got tired of clicking)

• Guy Chamberlin (of the Canton Bulldogs)
• Tommy Hughitt (of the Buffalo All Americans)
• George Halas (of the Decatur/Chicago Staleys)

Also, way more ties back in those days.

EDIT: 

Ah, this explains it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime_(sports)#American_and_Canadian_football

Quote

In 1974 the NFL adopted sudden death overtime for regular season and preseason games

Pre 1974 just about every team had 1-2 ties every year.  Then in 1974 it just stops.

 

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming

[El Ramster]

22 minutes ago, theJ said:

Just clicked through a few coaches on profootballreference.  Strictly talking more modern era, I think the only starts better (through two full seasons) are:

• John Madden
• Jim Harbaugh (beats out McVay by advantage of one tie over a loss)

If we want to include the guys from the 20's/30's, then you have these guys (and probably more, i got tired of clicking)

• Guy Chamberlin (of the Canton Bulldogs)
• Tommy Hughitt (of the Buffalo All Americans)
• George Halas (of the Decatur/Chicago Staleys)

Also, way more ties back in those days.

EDIT: 

Ah, this explains it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime_(sports)#American_and_Canadian_football

Pre 1974 just about every team had 1-2 ties every year.  Then in 1974 it just stops.

 

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming

So I’m right?