Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?

[ET80]

34 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

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- ET

[AntonChigurh]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Once you can abide by the forum rules, we can have a conversation. You've taken to think these rules don't apply to you, and that's not the case.

https://forums.footballsfuture.com/guidelines/

Either you follow these rules, or you won't be posting here in the future. 

- ET

Refer to my first post. Add to the football conversation or find somewhere else to post

[Webmaster]

@AntonChigurh has been warned numerous times.  He continues to ignore moderator requests to follow the forum rules.  As a result, he has been banned for two weeks.  

[jrry32]

On 11/28/2019 at 11:06 AM, Jlowe22 said:

It is true, you can't even compare stats from a decade ago to now.  We're entering another era of football that's gonna be more arcade mode than ever before, and it's going to resemble Madden more than ever before.  But even despite that, I agree with others that Vick is not Lamar Jackson.  What he coulda and shoulda done is one thing, but if he had poor work ethic and poor accuracy, he's not gonna be better than Lamar.  He's not so much more talented that he would be better than Lamar based off of pure talent.

Sure, Vick is partly to blame for not being a better QB, but there's no denying he was more physically talented. He was a better athlete and had a stronger arm. The issue for Vick was that he spent almost his entire career with an utterly incompetent HC who tried to force him to play in a classic WCO, instead of tailoring an offense to Vick's abilities. Might Vick have been a different player today with a coach who understood how to design an offense tailored to his running abilities and the RPO? Very likely. Might that have resulted in Vick being more dedicated to his craft? Hard to say. It's really too bad we'll never know. Vick was a one-of-a-kind talent. As gifted as Lamar is, he still isn't Vick.

[Jlowe22]

2 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Sure, Vick is partly to blame for not being a better QB, but there's no denying he was more physically talented. He was a better athlete and had a stronger arm. The issue for Vick was that he spent almost his entire career with an utterly incompetent HC who tried to force him to play in a classic WCO, instead of tailoring an offense to Vick's abilities. Might Vick have been a different player today with a coach who understood how to design an offense tailored to his running abilities and the RPO? Very likely. Might that have resulted in Vick being more dedicated to his craft? Hard to say. It's really too bad we'll never know. Vick was a one-of-a-kind talent. As gifted as Lamar is, he still isn't Vick.

I know Vick is more talented.  What I said was, that talent by itself is not enough to make him better than Lamar, if he doesn’t improve his work ethic and other areas.  IMO. 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Jlowe22

[SWATcha]

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Sure, Vick is partly to blame for not being a better QB, but there's no denying he was more physically talented. He was a better athlete and had a stronger arm. 

Not if you listen to Collinsworth. Lamar has a military sanctioned rocket arm and he's the best thing since sliced bread, and the wheel lol.

Tough comparison to make for me. Like others have said, Vick never had a coaching staff that stepped back and put aside their egos to completely rebuild a whole offense around his skillset. Crumpler(TE) was his favorite target for years, which lends some validity to if Vick would of ran the same offense, allowing him to throw to the middle more, his completion percentage would be better. Vick was always a square peg being forced into a round hole scheme though.

Both entertaining as hell to watch. 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by SWATcha

[eagles18]

Lamar is a heckuva talent but its hard to compare these two with the new rules favoring offenses. Vick played in a era where big hits were encouraged and every downfield pass didn't end up as a PI 

[bmorecareful]

1 hour ago, SWATcha said:

Not if you listen to Collinsworth. Lamar has a military sanctioned rocket arm and he's the best thing since sliced bread, and the wheel lol.

Tough comparison to make for me. Like others have said, Vick never had a coaching staff that stepped back and put aside their egos to completely rebuild a whole offense around his skillset. Crumpler(TE) was his favorite target for years, which lends some validity to if Vick would of ran the same offense, allowing him to throw to the middle more, his completion percentage would be better. Vick was always a square peg being forced into a round hole scheme though.

Both entertaining as hell to watch. 

 

I just don’t get this Vick was supremely more talented thing... what is it based on... Vick appeared faster but that also may have to do with the speed of Defenders being slower overall back then... Vick ran 4.33... RGIII ran 4.38... Where exactly would u guess Lamar would fall... We talk about arm talent as if it’s only correspondence is based on distance and velocity... But there is so much more to being a efficient passer... all of which Lamar has proven to be superior at to Vick at any point in his career at 22 years old... Vick as a finished product was never as good as Lamar as a first year starter... This to me is like Vince Carter vs Kobe Bryant... the slightly extra athleticism has no impact on the actual talent of the players as it pertains to playing the sport 

[Tk3]

They play differently

Vick had SO many sweeping outside scrambles, as opposed to Lamar who seems to do a much better job getting downfield quickly

They may have similar skill sets, but Vick seemed to play "fast" while Lamar seems to play "quick" if that makes any sense

Lamar seems much more in control of his passing game, and his scrambles feel more direct, while Vick's were spectacular in that he ran a million miles before getting off a pass or a run. We don't see as many of those with Lamar where he runs back and forth in the backfield

[diamondbull424]

10 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

I just don’t get this Vick was supremely more talented thing... what is it based on... Vick appeared faster but that also may have to do with the speed of Defenders being slower overall back then... Vick ran 4.33... RGIII ran 4.38... Where exactly would u guess Lamar would fall... We talk about arm talent as if it’s only correspondence is based on distance and velocity... But there is so much more to being a efficient passer... all of which Lamar has proven to be superior at to Vick at any point in his career at 22 years old... Vick as a finished product was never as good as Lamar as a first year starter... This to me is like Vince Carter vs Kobe Bryant... the slightly extra athleticism has no impact on the actual talent of the players as it pertains to playing the sport 

Perfect analogy. Perhaps if Vince Carter had generational work ethic and smarts he would’ve been greater than Kobe, however he wasn’t because he didn’t have those tools.

Vick is probably faster, but Lamar is definitely more sudden and has better breakaway speed. He’s also stronger, despite his WR type frame to Vick’s slash back type frame. So the athleticism is at best a push.

Then while Vick has more ball strength Lamar has more passing platforms and delivery methods that increase the effectiveness of his delivery. So the passing element is a push on talent.

But Lamar separates himself in his leadership intangibles, work ethic, his ability to read pro defenses, and decision making.

If Vick were more talented than Lamar clearly he would’ve had something to show for it. A heisman (like Lamar) or an MVP award in the NFL (we’ll see where Lamar finishes).

The problem with these crappy Vick arguments/takes are that it completely ignores the fact that Vick didn’t study tape and wasn’t very dedicated. It assumes that if he came into today’s league, he would have a better mentality. Which if true would tell me that Vick isn’t mentally tough enough to battle past the adversity of his position. If he played in an offense designed around his strengths, it wouldn’t matter because he didn’t buy in anyway.

[Soko]

Can’t/won’t speak for everyone, but when I say that Vick is more talented than Lamar, it’s in reference to the physical ability. Not sure work ethic really belongs in the talent discussion - in fact, Vick’s talent is likely the reason why he didn’t work nearly as hard as he should have. 

Talent doesn’t mean better. Cam Newton is more talented than Tom Brady. Michael Vick was more talented than Peyton Manning. Josh Allen is more talented than Drew Brees. Conceding talent or athleticism doesn’t mean Lamar’s a worse player. 

I said I’d rather have Jackson as a QB but Vick was more talented. Probably similarish speed (though I’d still give Vick the edge there), think Vick get the edge in twitchiness, and Vick certainly has the edge in pure arm talent. He just A) wasn’t a hard worker, as he admitted, and B) never seemed to pick up the nuances of the QB position like Jackson is doing so far this season. Lamar last year looked a lot more like Vick throwing the ball - this year is completely different from that. Jackson has been more accurate, which along with the other mental stuff that QBing requires, makes this an easy comparison IMO (if we’re assuming Jackson stays on this track).

But talent? Athleticism? That’s got to go to Vick.

[diamondbull424]

9 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

But talent? Athleticism? That’s got to go to Vick.

But why? Throwing the ball far is talent. But adjusting arm angles is also talent. That’s not a normal thing all QBs do. Both have their limited uses in the game of football. Probably a few passes a game can benefit from a rocket deep pass or a side arm pass to evade a defender. The rocket arm will look better on highlights though, while adjusting an angle to eliminate a DL from knocking down the pass is probably a bit more useful and effective on a play to play basis. So even if I gave Vick the advantage, it would be very minimal.

In terms of athleticism, completely disagree. Just spent nearly an hour looking up highlights of speed demons of past and present such as Reggie Bush, Adrian Peterson, RG3, Kyler Murray, Jamaal Charles, Mike Vick, Lamar Jackson, Darren McFadden, CMC, Dalvin Cook. All players you would imagine to be in a “similar enough” speed category.

Vick and Bush looked nearly identical in both speed and suddenness. Vick had slightly more acceleration. Bush had slightly better contact balance and a far superior moveset. CMC was definitely the most sudden, he could shake butter out of the wrapping. CMC and Kyler Murray look about similarly fast, just Murray has those really short strides. Murray isn’t as sudden as CMC, probably closer in that regard to Cook. Cook looks slightly faster than CMC, would put RG3 in a similar speed category to Cook. Cook looked similarly sudden and explosive (acceleration to top speed) as Charles. In terms of breakaway speed I would put Lamar in the same category as Peterson, typically guys aren’t running them down like I’ve seen with some of these other runners. I see Lamar as the second most sudden (ability to stop on a dime at high speeds) of these players to CMC. RG3 had good speed, but had easily the worst acceleration and the worst suddenness of these runners. Lamar and Darren McFadden look to have a similar speed and stride. McFadden just didn’t seem to have the same long speed consistently as Peterson and Jackson.

All in all if I had to crown someone the most “overall fast” (I mean speed is a wide ranging category) than I would give it to Jamaal Charles. He was Dalvin Cook with more deep speed. But in second place I would have Lamar because of the combination between speed, flexibility, and suddenness. Then both Adrian Peterson and CMC make compelling cases. Then Reggie Bush and Vick are nearly identical to my eyes as runners. Next I would have Cook. Then I would go with McFadden and Kyler. Lastly RG3. It’s all very close and obviously subjective, but that’s how I would personally stack it up.

[Soko]

19 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

But why? Throwing the ball far is talent. But adjusting arm angles is also talent. That’s not a normal thing all QBs do. Both have their limited uses in the game of football. Probably a few passes a game can benefit from a rocket deep pass or a side arm pass to evade a defender. The rocket arm will look better on highlights though, while adjusting an angle to eliminate a DL from knocking down the pass is probably a bit more useful and effective on a play to play basis. So even if I gave Vick the advantage, it would be very minimal.

It’s distance and velocity. I don’t think release (as in high, side, etc.) is a talent as much as I believe it’s a mechanic. You can change a mechanic, I don’t think you can improve arm talent (anymore than you can change speed - in that you could make improvements, but your capped athletically. For instance I will never be as fast as Michael Vick even if I work x100 harder than he ever did...). 

Quote

In terms of athleticism, completely disagree. Just spent nearly an hour looking up highlights of speed demons of past and present such as Reggie Bush, Adrian Peterson, RG3, Kyler Murray, Jamaal Charles, Mike Vick, Lamar Jackson, Darren McFadden, CMC, Dalvin Cook. All players you would imagine to be in a “similar enough” speed category.

Vick and Bush looked nearly identical in both speed and suddenness. Vick had slightly more acceleration. Bush had slightly better contact balance and a far superior moveset. CMC was definitely the most sudden, he could shake butter out of the wrapping. CMC and Kyler Murray look about similarly fast, just Murray has those really short strides. Murray isn’t as sudden as CMC, probably closer in that regard to Cook. Cook looks slightly faster than CMC, would put RG3 in a similar speed category to Cook. Cook looked similarly sudden and explosive (acceleration to top speed) as Charles. In terms of breakaway speed I would put Lamar in the same category as Peterson, typically guys aren’t running them down like I’ve seen with some of these other runners. I see Lamar as the second most sudden (ability to stop on a dime at high speeds) of these players to CMC. RG3 had good speed, but had easily the worst acceleration and the worst suddenness of these runners. Lamar and Darren McFadden look to have a similar speed and stride. McFadden just didn’t seem to have the same long speed consistently as Peterson and Jackson.

All in all if I had to crown someone the most “overall fast” (I mean speed is a wide ranging category) than I would give it to Jamaal Charles. He was Dalvin Cook with more deep speed. But in second place I would have Lamar because of the combination between speed, flexibility, and suddenness. Then both Adrian Peterson and CMC make compelling cases. Then Reggie Bush and Vick are nearly identical to my eyes as runners. Next I would have Cook. Then I would go with McFadden and Kyler. Lastly RG3. It’s all very close and obviously subjective, but that’s how I would personally stack it up.

Huh? Isn’t this a Lamar/Vick thread? 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Yin-Yang

[tyler735]

Yeah I'm still not buying that Michael Vick was more talented than Lamar Jackson. Athleticism is essentially a push. Vick may have had a bit better arm strength, but I also take things like accuracy, and being able to effectively throw from different arm angles into account when assessing "arm talent". In that regard Jackson has to have the advantage. 

[Jameson_Neat]

Everything was different a decade ago, let alone two.

That arm angle thing that is being applauded now was almost coached out of a guy like Stafford, and that was only 5-6 years ago.