Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?

[AlexGreen#20]

Michael Vick got 2 votes for MVP in his entire career. 

1 in 2004 when Mike O'Hara got stupid and voted for him because of some bull**** about not having a unanimous MVP (Manning won it 49-1 that year)

1 in 2001 when there just wasn't anybody standing out (19 for Gannon, 15 for Favre, 11 for McNair, 1 for Priest Holmes, 1 for Derrick Brooks, 1 for Mike Vick, and 2 ******* writers who didn't return their ballots)

Lamar Jackson is going to get at least 20 and more likely 35ish this year. 

[MSURacerDT55]

16 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Seems convenient since Vick doesn’t come close in most stats. Stats aren’t all that matter but there’s a big gap, that counts for something. 

There’s no argument that he’s equally as responsible. He played a big part, but equal share? 

Lamar can sling it. He struggled throwing ropes intermediate, outside. Vick could hit those with his cannon...when he wasn’t sailing it over a receiver’s head. The guy just wasn’t accurate. Even in his best season with Reid, his accuracy was barely reliable. 

I don’t buy these “if” arguments. They’re 100% unprovable. You believe Vick is some sort of good passer? 

1) Man, the way you make Vick out to be, he basically was a running back who completed an occasional pass or two a game which is hilarious

2) True, you cant prove any of those arguments but this is what this forum is about, debating the hypothetical

3) I'm not sure where I said where I suggested Vick was a good passer, maybe you can reference where I said so

4) My whole point is, If Vick were in Greg Roman's offense, he would destroy teams based off picking your poison, if you play with the safetys up to address the run, he would kill you with Hollywood Brown (Like he did with Desean Jackson) over the top, and when you choose to worry about the vertical game, you would get gashed in the run game. Jackson doesn't present that same threat (Albeit still successful, just in an intermediate, across the middle type of way), that's all I'm saying

[scar988]

On 11/12/2019 at 12:00 AM, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Vick's career is a tale of 2 halves, pre and post prison, Atlanta and Philly. I am asking about Atlanta Vick here since that was a fundamentally different QB than Vick w/ the Eagles, and one much more comparable to Lamar Jackson, an absolute electric factory whenever he touched the ball but still fairly raw as passers and nowhere near their peak. In Philly, I would guess due to a combination of being a tad slower and more fragile along with Reid as coach, scrambling was last resort, he tried to play the part of pocket QB.

His best year in Atlanta is probably 2006 (although the 04-06 Vick is essentially same player statistically). So let's look at that.

Now Lamar has him beat in both passing and rushing volume, a little less than 100 more Y/G in offense. Vick boasted a higher Y/C as a runner, but fumbled more. Now the passing efficiency gap isn't quite as extreme as raw number suggest, but it's still a pretty big gap. Vick has an era adjusted 93 in PFR's passer rating index (100 average for time) for 2006 (peaked at 97 in 04) vs Lamar's 112 in '19 (92 in '18). 

 

I have a feeling Lamar will run away with this, I mean the #s paint a pretty clear picture and they're both pretty equal as far as athleticism goes... but I'm interested to hear from those who were following the NFL to witness the Vick experience live and what they think. Is Lamar simply a new and improved version by every measure?

Vick wasn't that good in Philly either if we're being honest.

 

But yes, Lamar is Vick if Vick had touch, accuracy and could read defenses better than he did as a passer. As a runner? They're the same.

[scar988]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Michael Vick got 2 votes for MVP in his entire career. 

1 in 2004 when Mike O'Hara got stupid and voted for him because of some bull**** about not having a unanimous MVP (Manning won it 49-1 that year)

1 in 2001 when there just wasn't anybody standing out (19 for Gannon, 15 for Favre, 11 for McNair, 1 for Priest Holmes, 1 for Derrick Brooks, 1 for Mike Vick, and 2 ******* writers who didn't return their ballots)

Lamar Jackson is going to get at least 20 and more likely 35ish this year. 

Lamar is seeing closer to 40-ish this year.

[MSURacerDT55]

11 minutes ago, scar988 said:

Vick wasn't that good in Philly either if we're being honest.

 

But yes, Lamar is Vick if Vick had a weaker arm. As a runner? They're the same.

 

[scar988]

12 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

 

Don't try to put words in my mouth. Vick was inaccurate like crazy. He didn't understand how to put touch on the ball and just rifled it in there too much. And if you ask about Atlanta Vick, I think I would know since I watched literally every game he played in Atlanta. So please, stop with trying to put words in my mouth. I said what I meant.

[MSURacerDT55]

47 minutes ago, scar988 said:

Don't try to put words in my mouth. Vick was inaccurate like crazy. He didn't understand how to put touch on the ball and just rifled it in there too much. And if you ask about Atlanta Vick, I think I would know since I watched literally every game he played in Atlanta. So please, stop with trying to put words in my mouth. I said what I meant.

Relax, it was a FIFY type of thing.

Also,Do you all see who Vick had as an OC? Greg Knapp, that guy blew, he had no idea what to do with Vick, he had the innovation of a table cloth

Edited January 29, 2020 by MSURacerDT55

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

10 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

The same way we have seen two dozen other QB's make it to the playoffs. But I'm sure having a top 3 defense had nothing to do with that....it was all because of LJ. GTFO.

That "top 3 defense" didn't help Joe Flacco at all, did it? We had the same roster sans one player for both halves of the season. In one half we won 4 games out of 9. In remaining games, we lost 1 game, in OT, to the Chiefs. But sure, Lamar was "terrible" that year. GTFO.

10 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Example. What was your opinion of Mitch last year? Point made.

One QB was inserted into an offense on a bye week in week 10, the other had an entire offseason. Look at what Lamar just did in his first full year starting with the full offense.

10 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Wrong again. And all you had to do was read my post without the glasses on and expecting everyone to gravel at your Jesus Lamar to figure this out. 

LMFAO. This is so garbage. You're going to literally any length to downplay anything Lamar's done. I can only speculate as to why that is. Maybe you got rejected from Louisville and thus hold a grudge against anyone from there. Perhaps Lamar dated your girlfriend after you. Or maybe it's just really, really simple...

[scar988]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Relax, it was a FIFY type of thing.

Also,Do you all see who Vick had as an OC? Greg Knapp, that guy blew, he had no idea what to do with Vick, he had the innovation of a table cloth

It's a disrespectful kind of thing.

 

Knapp is a smarter OC than given credit for. But no one has been innovative with these guys until lately.And Knapp would have been fine had Vick actually paid attention and worked in the offseason to learn the WCO and zone concepts. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by scar988

[Soko]

5 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

1) Man, the way you make Vick out to be, he basically was a running back who completed an occasional pass or two a game which is hilarious

Vick was a tick or two above that. Probably a tick above Tebow as a passer. 

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2) True, you cant prove any of those arguments but this is what this forum is about, debating the hypothetical

I could say: had Mark Sanchez been on the Patriots, he’d have gone down as the GOAT QB - with the same amount of merit. 100% unprovable. Hypotheticals are fun sometimes but they shouldn’t be the crux of an argument. 

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3) I'm not sure where I said where I suggested Vick was a good passer, maybe you can reference where I said so

Never accused you of doing so, go back and check. I was clarifying to see if that’s what you actually believe or not.

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4) My whole point is, If Vick were in Greg Roman's offense, he would destroy teams based off picking your poison, if you play with the safetys up to address the run, he would kill you with Hollywood Brown (Like he did with Desean Jackson) over the top, and when you choose to worry about the vertical game, you would get gashed in the run game. Jackson doesn't present that same threat (Albeit still successful, just in an intermediate, across the middle type of way), that's all I'm saying

Nah, that’s not all you said. You said Lamar Jackson was a mediocre quarterback. If Lamar is a mediocre QB and is already blowing past most of what Vick accomplished in his entire career - then Vick must’ve been steaming trash. 

And even in the Reid offense (and Reid>Roman) with Jackson, Maclin, Celek, Avant, Shady - he was inferior as a passer. Once again, hypotheticals are fine, but that’s all you’re bringing to the table, so it’s weak.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[MSURacerDT55]

3 hours ago, scar988 said:

It's a disrespectful kind of thing.

 

Knapp is a smarter OC than given credit for. But no one has been innovative with these guys until lately.And Knapp would have been fine had Vick actually paid attention and worked in the offseason to learn the WCO and zone concepts. 

Disrespectful is assuming Vick didn't pay attention and worked at his craft without any tangible evidence....

[Soko]

4 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Disrespectful is assuming Vick didn't pay attention and worked at his craft without any tangible evidence....

The tangible evidence are his own words. Vick has said he used to take the playbook and throw it in the back of his trunk. He said as a Falcon, he cheated the organization and was more invested in dogfighting and football. Said that he could read dogs more than read defenses. He doesn’t hold back from talking about his own poor work ethic. 

[MSURacerDT55]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

And even in the Reid offense (and Reid>Roman) with Jackson, Maclin, Celek, Avant, Shady - he was inferior as a passer. Once again, hypotheticals are fine, but that’s all you’re bringing to the table, so it’s weak.

-The difference between Reid and Roman is that Reid utilizes 5 offensive threats, WR,WR,WR,TE,RB, whereas Roman uses 6 WR,WR,TE,TE,RB,QB. My point is, Vick never had the opportunity to have an OC feature his skills like Roman features Jackson's, Vick evolved into a pocket passer and lasted for 13 years because of it.

-Can you honestly say Lamar Jackson can go to Andy Reid's offense and be a primarily pocket passer and be successful in this league? We already know the answer

-And lets be real, they had the #3 offense in the league, so lets not act like he wasn't effective in Philadelphia....

[MSURacerDT55]

5 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

The tangible evidence are his own words. Vick has said he used to take the playbook and throw it in the back of his trunk. He said as a Falcon, he cheated the organization and was more invested in dogfighting and football. Said that he could read dogs more than read defenses. He doesn’t hold back from talking about his own poor work ethic. 

Welp, he eventually did learn how to become a pocket passer, that's a leg up on Jackson

[SalvadorsDeli]

36 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Welp, he eventually did learn how to become a pocket passer, that's a leg up on Jackson

Lol are you really just gonna spend a whole new offseason being hilariously wrong about Lamar all over again