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Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?


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3 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I'm built for this...

Clearly not because you still haven’t produced any evidence as to McNabb or Smith producing at all levels vs Lamar not being able to replicate that type of passing versatility.

Edited by diamondbull424
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9 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

The ironic thing about it is the Vick camp in this thread is yelling “it’s recency bias to pick Jackson, you must not remember how good Vick was when he played”, when in fact, it’s the opposite.

I think it’s pretty clear the Vick camp came of age when Mike was coming onto the scene in the NFL and they aggrandize him because they remember them being awed by him when they were younger.

Very willing to bet almost all of the people picking Vick as the better player were somewhere between 10-18 years old when mike was in Atlanta, and they’re overrating his actual level as an NFL player because he was “it” when they fell in love with the NFL.

I was in that age range for Falcons Vick, so i remember the hype well. He just wasn’t all he was cracked up to be.

I was a late teenager in those years so I remember that too. But I also remember him being derided as "Mick Pick" or "RB who occasionally throws". "Vick is a bad QB" wasn't that unpopular of an opinion on football forums back in the 2000's. It was Vick being sent to prison that kind of made me re-evaluate what the Vick years were like really - and there was some good to be had, but it wasn't anything like what people remembered. From what I've gathered of Lamar, he's got a really good head on his shoulders and he wouldn't do something so stupid to screw over the Ravens organization like Vick did to the Falcons. 

Atlanta was really lucky to recover after that incident, a lot of organizations would have completely imploded.

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49 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

This really show how absurd it is that people are still arguing for Vick.

It’s not absurd to them because they always fall on “if Vick had Lamar’s coaches, in today’s NFL”. A forever, unprovable argument. It’s the NFL equivalent to flat-earthers saying that NASA guards the arctic walls.

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On 1/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:
On 1/28/2020 at 11:54 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

The same way we have seen two dozen other QB's make it to the playoffs. But I'm sure having a top 3 defense had nothing to do with that....it was all because of LJ. GTFO.

That "top 3 defense" didn't help Joe Flacco at all, did it? We had the same roster sans one player for both halves of the season. In one half we won 4 games out of 9. In remaining games, we lost 1 game, in OT, to the Chiefs. But sure, Lamar was "terrible" that year. GTFO.

Flacco....well damn, don't raise the bar too high now. Hell, why stop there. Why not go as far as to say he played better than Al Bundy too while you're at it.

That said are you just going to ignore the fact that Lamar played a MUCH easier defensive schedule than Flacco did? 5 out of 7 games that Lamar started in were against some of the worst defenses in the league. 

The average opponent defensive DVOA for Flacco was -1.8%, and the average DVOA for Lamar was +6.0%. A negative is bad for the defense. A +6.0% would have been good for 26th in the league last year. Likewise, a negative number is good for defenses and -1.8 % would have been good for 13th in the league. 

The defense, special teams, and the easy schedule were far more of the reason the team went 6-1 than Lamar was .

Here is a list of all defenses that Lamar played against. 5 teams were in the bottom 7.

Week 11, Bengals - Ranked 26th in DVOA before the game and 28th in weighted DVOA. Finished 28th in the league.

Week 12, Raiders - 29th before the game and 29th in WDVOA. Finished 30th in the league.

Week 13, Falcons -  32nd before the game and 32nd in WDVOA. Finished 31st in the league.

Week 14, Chiefs - 26th before the game and 21st in WDVOA. Finished 26th in the league. 

Week 15, Bucs - 30th before the game and 28th in WDVOA. Finished 32nd in the league.

Week 16, Chargers - 12th before the game and 8th in WDVOA. Finished 8th in the league.

Week 17, Browns - 11th before the game and 14th in WDVOA. Finished 12th in the league.

Yeah, that's terrible.

On 1/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

In remaining games, we lost 1 game, in OT, to the Chiefs. But sure, Lamar was "terrible" that year. GTFO.

It's funny you bring up this game considering that you lost that game because of Lamar! It should have never gone into OT in the first place.

The defense did their part by holding the best offense in the league to 1 TD in the 2nd half. Special teams did their part with ~55 yard return in OT to set the offense up on the 20-ish yard line with 45 seconds left (KC w/ 2 TOs left), putting the team in a perfect position to run the clock and win the game--especially with a kicker like Tucker. 

But instead, Lamar fumbles the ball in the backfield because he didn't feel the pressure coming at all. Yeah, that's terrible. 

On 1/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

One QB was inserted into an offense on a bye week in week 10, the other had an entire offseason. Look at what Lamar just did in his first full year starting with the full offense.

Seriously, this is the best that you can come up with? There was literally only a 5 game difference between the two, and they both had an entire offseason. If 5 games is a deciding factor for you then you are clearly being either a major homer (which is no doubt the case here) or you are a big hypocrite when judging QB's. Mitch only had 12 games in college and was starting with a brand new offense with an entirely different staff---Lamar wasn't. But none of that mattered to you when you were judging another player who wasn't the QB of your favorite team though, did it. But now all of a sudden those small little intricacies matter.......hmm, I wonder why. 

On 1/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

LMFAO. This is so garbage. You're going to literally any length to downplay anything Lamar's done. I can only speculate as to why that is. Maybe you got rejected from Louisville and thus hold a grudge against anyone from there. Perhaps Lamar dated your girlfriend after you. Or maybe it's just really, really simple...

LOL. Yeah, it's garbage when children resort to elementary retorts all because you have your head(s) so far up Lamar's *** and I'm not kissing it, and you're pouting like a baby because of it. Grow up, son.

--it's even more garbage to claim that I am somehow downplaying Lamar when this is literally the very first time I have ever commented about him whatsoever on here in the last 2 years. And the only negative thing I said was that he was a trash QB last year, and even said the situation wasn't the best either.   

 --It's even more garbage when you can't seem to comprehend something so simple, like my initial post on the subject, even after it's been spelled out to you twice already. 

--It's even more garbage that I have had to spend this much time on this considering my initial post was neither a knock or praise about lamar, whatsoever. 

Here, I'll try to explain this again to you for third, and last time, in a way so simple that not even you can possibly not understand.

People on this forum have a bad habit of overreacting about a player (for or against) based on only 1 game/season. If a player has 1 good or bad game/season then it's automatically a forgone conclusion that player is what he is at that point and there is no room for growth or decline. This is ridiculous on so many different levels, especially when that ignorant short-sighted thought process gets proven wrong so many times every single year. But because some people can't seem to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions, they allow the news and social media to tell them how/what to think.

Lamar has been in the league for 2 years with only 22 games under his belt as a starter with mixed results (aka as a passer---you know, the most important aspect of being a quarterback). So nobody should be claiming that he trash just like nobody should be claiming that he is the next best thing. 

But, hey, I'm just hater right.  Even though I have no reason to be biased at all. Nor have I offered any overall opinion on Lamar, at all, at any point in time on this forum. 

Here's another mind-blowing fact that you don't know since you seem to have all figured out with your panties in a bunch. My second favorite team in the league is the Ravens since I watched Ray Lewis' entire career since college. Plus, most of my family are Steelers fans and I get heckled for being Bears fan and have to constantly hear about their accomplishments (I HATE the Steelers because of this). So if there was ever a time that I chose to be biased, it certainly wouldn't be against the Ravens. 

This is obviously a you problem. 

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On 31.1.2020 at 6:55 PM, tyler735 said:

Agreed, I'm a Saints fan. This thread literally has Falcons/Saints fans coming together and agreeing on something, that should be enough evidence of how far fetched some of the arguments in here are lol

Steelers and Ravens fans bonded and came together against the refs in the week 5 game. Thats how bad the refeering was in that game.

It was so rare it was a bit uncomfortable

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8 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Flacco....well damn, don't raise the bar too high now. Hell, why stop there. Why not go as far as to say he played better than Al Bundy too while you're at it.

That said are you just going to ignore the fact that Lamar played a MUCH easier defensive schedule than Flacco did? 5 out of 7 games that Lamar started in were against some of the worst defenses in the league. 

The average opponent defensive DVOA for Flacco was -1.8%, and the average DVOA for Lamar was +6.0%. A negative is bad for the defense. A +6.0% would have been good for 26th in the league last year. Likewise, a negative number is good for defenses and -1.8 % would have been good for 13th in the league. 

The defense, special teams, and the easy schedule were far more of the reason the team went 6-1 than Lamar was .

Here is a list of all defenses that Lamar played against. 5 teams were in the bottom 7.

Week 11, Bengals - Ranked 26th in DVOA before the game and 28th in weighted DVOA. Finished 28th in the league.

Week 12, Raiders - 29th before the game and 29th in WDVOA. Finished 30th in the league.

Week 13, Falcons -  32nd before the game and 32nd in WDVOA. Finished 31st in the league.

Week 14, Chiefs - 26th before the game and 21st in WDVOA. Finished 26th in the league. 

Week 15, Bucs - 30th before the game and 28th in WDVOA. Finished 32nd in the league.

Week 16, Chargers - 12th before the game and 8th in WDVOA. Finished 8th in the league.

Week 17, Browns - 11th before the game and 14th in WDVOA. Finished 12th in the league.

Yeah, that's terrible.

It's funny you bring up this game considering that you lost that game because of Lamar! It should have never gone into OT in the first place.

The defense did their part by holding the best offense in the league to 1 TD in the 2nd half. Special teams did their part with ~55 yard return in OT to set the offense up on the 20-ish yard line with 45 seconds left (KC w/ 2 TOs left), putting the team in a perfect position to run the clock and win the game--especially with a kicker like Tucker. 

But instead, Lamar fumbles the ball in the backfield because he didn't feel the pressure coming at all. Yeah, that's terrible. 

Seriously, this is the best that you can come up with? There was literally only a 5 game difference between the two, and they both had an entire offseason. If 5 games is a deciding factor for you then you are clearly being either a major homer (which is no doubt the case here) or you are a big hypocrite when judging QB's. Mitch only had 12 games in college and was starting with a brand new offense with an entirely different staff---Lamar wasn't. But none of that mattered to you when you were judging another player who wasn't the QB of your favorite team though, did it. But now all of a sudden those small little intricacies matter.......hmm, I wonder why. 

LOL. Yeah, it's garbage when children resort to elementary retorts all because you have your head(s) so far up Lamar's *** and I'm not kissing it, and you're pouting like a baby because of it. Grow up, son.

--it's even more garbage to claim that I am somehow downplaying Lamar when this is literally the very first time I have ever commented about him whatsoever on here in the last 2 years. And the only negative thing I said was that he was a trash QB last year, and even said the situation wasn't the best either.   

 --It's even more garbage when you can't seem to comprehend something so simple, like my initial post on the subject, even after it's been spelled out to you twice already. 

--It's even more garbage that I have had to spend this much time on this considering my initial post was neither a knock or praise about lamar, whatsoever. 

Here, I'll try to explain this again to you for third, and last time, in a way so simple that not even you can possibly not understand.

People on this forum have a bad habit of overreacting about a player (for or against) based on only 1 game/season. If a player has 1 good or bad game/season then it's automatically a forgone conclusion that player is what he is at that point and there is no room for growth or decline. This is ridiculous on so many different levels, especially when that ignorant short-sighted thought process gets proven wrong so many times every single year. But because some people can't seem to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions, they allow the news and social media to tell them how/what to think.

Lamar has been in the league for 2 years with only 22 games under his belt as a starter with mixed results (aka as a passer---you know, the most important aspect of being a quarterback). So nobody should be claiming that he trash just like nobody should be claiming that he is the next best thing. 

But, hey, I'm just hater right.  Even though I have no reason to be biased at all. Nor have I offered any overall opinion on Lamar, at all, at any point in time on this forum. 

Here's another mind-blowing fact that you don't know since you seem to have all figured out with your panties in a bunch. My second favorite team in the league is the Ravens since I watched Ray Lewis' entire career since college. Plus, most of my family are Steelers fans and I get heckled for being Bears fan and have to constantly hear about their accomplishments (I HATE the Steelers because of this). So if there was ever a time that I chose to be biased, it certainly wouldn't be against the Ravens. 

This is obviously a you problem. 

It is garbage that you don't realize, that all you do when claiming Lamar was terrible, is that you focus on one thing he did well and take that out of the equation.

For some reason, you focus on Lamars performance based on passing aka. your definition on the most important aspect of being a quarterback. It would be the same to take away another QB's ability to - for instance complete throws to their favorite wide receiver/target, or their ability to hit throws deep.

What Lamar was told to execute, he did that extremely well. Then saying he was terrible, that is just a wrong statement.

No one is saying Lamar was a great deep throw passer that year, or that he was tearing defenses apart with his arm. But he kept the offense on the field with a limited amount of playmakers, and the long drives helped the defense as they were fresh for most of the game. 

 

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11 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Seriously, this is the best that you can come up with? There was literally only a 5 game difference between the two, and they both had an entire offseason. If 5 games is a deciding factor for you then you are clearly being either a major homer (which is no doubt the case here) or you are a big hypocrite when judging QB's.

I try to stay out of other people’s arguments (FTMP), but this literally made so little sense that I had to comment.

You do realize that in the NFL the starting QB takes the bulk of the reps in practice? What’s more with the Ravens, RG3 being the QB2 was getting more reps than Lamar as well. So comparing that to Trubisky isn’t some homer take, its legitimate. If one guy is getting 70% of reps and another guy is getting 20% through the first 10 weeks, that’s going to make a huge difference.

 I’m not invested enough in whatever the rest of what you guys are arguing enough to comment on that from an educate perspective, but this point seemed quite flawed.

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1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

I try to stay out of other people’s arguments (FTMP), but this literally made so little sense that I had to comment.

You do realize that in the NFL the starting QB takes the bulk of the reps in practice? What’s more with the Ravens, RG3 being the QB2 was getting more reps than Lamar as well. So comparing that to Trubisky isn’t some homer take, its legitimate. If one guy is getting 70% of reps and another guy is getting 20% through the first 10 weeks, that’s going to make a huge difference.

 I’m not invested enough in whatever the rest of what you guys are arguing enough to comment on that from an educate perspective, but this point seemed quite flawed.

It took this dude like a full week to type up that verbal diarrhea. I don't even remember what we were arguing about in the first place but now his argument has shifted from "He sucks he had a top 3 defense do all the work for him" to "Well he played a bad lineup of defenses so nothing he did counts!".

People like @JustAnotherFan will always be around, going to whatever lengths they want to discredit players they don't like for whatever reason. Ultimately, though, here's what matters:

xmidjr7deee41.jpg?width=614&auto=webp&s=90c9437a48067d630f427e4e72056395332e15c0

And this right here is something these people just cannot live with, because it spits in the face of their predisposed notions that "He can't play QB", "He can't read coverages", "he's not an accurate passer", "He's just a RB". Lamar proved them all wrong this year, but they can't let it go because it would be admitting they were wrong. 

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