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Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?


RandyMossIsBoss

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I see people posting that Vick was a better runner than Jackson. I don't buy that at all. Being a Saints fan I got to see plenty of Vick over the years, and he was undoubtedly electrifying as a runner. That said, Vick doesn't strike me as being more dangerous as a runner than Jackson. If anything Jackson looks to be a bit more dangerous running the ball, but part of that could also be that today's NFL is more offense friendly than 15 years ago during Vick's years playing with the Falcons. Because of this I have them pretty equal as runners.

However throwing the ball is an entirely different story. Vick was nowhere near Jackson throwing the ball, and when Vick did appear to improve throwing the ball with the Eagles, his athleticism clearly wasn't the same as it was prior to going to prison. In other words, at no time in Vick's career was he close to replicating what Jackson is currently doing.

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1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. 

I'm saying based upon the physical toll, what Lamar Jackson is doing/being schemed to do running the football 10-20 times a game to the tune of 1,250 yards isn't physically sustainable over a 5-10 year period of time, not just from a "statistical standpoint".

Eventually, it's likely he gets hit hard, sprains an ankle, hurts his knee, the hits catch up to him (Cam Newton), etc.

True. But this element doesn’t HAVE to be sustainable. We already see that he’s running less than he was as a rookie. He’s able to pass more and that has allow more of his runs to come off less designed plays and more off of scrambles where defenses are ill prepared. And then trying to get him in the open field is a serious problem at that point.

So similar to how Wilson became less of a runner as his career progressed the same can be said for Jackson. He’s the most electrifying game manager in NFL history. But he’s already shown he can be a field General more and more. So as he evolves the team can mostly remove the designed runs and allow him to do most of his damage off of scrambles where he still would likely be good for 700-800 yards just off defenses not being able to contain his speed which at that point might be more 4.4 speed than 4.3 speed. Lamar at his slowest as he gets up there in age will likely fall to a Deshaun Watson 4.5/4.6 level of speed... and so in a sense what he’s doing is still pretty sustainable. Only the way he does it will slightly change.

But the same is true of ANY QB. Joe Flacco as a rookie had like 150 rushing yards off decent 4.7/4.8 speed... Joe Flacco now is more of a statue 5.1/5.2 speed guy. Players evolve and so it’s foolish to say any players game is sustainable in looking the EXACT same. Drew Brees doesn’t have the same arm that he once did, thus his former style WASN'T sustainable, therefore he adapted to taking less deep shots and working more of the short passing attack. So that his passing numbers remained sustainable.

Jackson doesn’t have to rush for 1200 yards for his rushing threat to open up the passing game. He just needs to be fast and pose the threat on every down. Watson is fast and poses that threat. Teams can’t get upfield on him or he can make you pay. We saw last night Mahomes make the Chargers pay for getting upfield on him. Jackson will always have that option to his game.

Edited by diamondbull424
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2 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

True. But this element doesn’t HAVE to be sustainable. We already see that he’s running less than he was as a rookie. He’s able to pass more and that has allow more of his runs to come off less designed plays and more off of scrambles where defenses are ill prepared. And then trying to get him in the open field is a serious problem at that point.

So similar to how Wilson became less of a runner as his career progressed the same can be said for Jackson. He’s the most electrifying game manager in NFL history. But he’s already shown he can be a field General more and more. So as he evolves the team can mostly remove the designed runs and allow him to do most of his damage off of scrambles where he still would likely be good for 700-800 yards just off defenses not being able to contain his speed which at that point might be more 4.4 speed than 4.3 speed. Lamar at his slowest as he gets up there in age will likely fall to a Deshaun Watson 4.5/4.6 level of speed... and so in a sense what he’s doing is still pretty sustainable. Only the way he does it will slightly change.

But the same is true of ANY QB. Joe Flacco as a rookie had like 150 rushing yards off decent 4.7/4.8 speed... Joe Flacco now is more of a statue 5.1/5.2 speed guy. Players evolve and so it’s foolish to say any players game is sustainable in looking the EXACT same. Drew Brees doesn’t have the same arm that he once did, thus his former style WASN'T sustainable, therefore he adapted to taking less deep shots and working more of the short passing attack.

I agree and understand what you're saying, but the OP/Title of this thread is a direct comparison to Michael Vick. Therefore, my response is purely in this flavor and vacuum.

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2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I agree and understand what you're saying, but the OP/Title of this thread is a direct comparison to Michael Vick. Therefore, my response is purely in this flavor and vacuum.

True. But the thing about Vick is that he wasn’t very durable in general. He didn’t last with his style of play in college. So he was never going to last in the pros. Anything could happen to Lamar obviously, but one thing we can’t say is that he wasn’t durable in college. He ran the ball for more yards than Saquan through three seasons yet remained healthy.

In the flavor of this comparison, if Jackson surpasses Vick this season and obliterates his rushing numbers, than it becomes all about longevity. Which player has the more durable history and durable frame? Vick or Lamar?

So even if Lamar is only putting up 700/800 yard seasons, with a more risk adverse style... he’s going to be setup a lot more to surpass Vick’s record of 6000 rushing yards via the longevity aspect as well.

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I think it's fair to say that what he's doing now in terms of production is not sustainable, but that assumes that teams won't adjust and Lamar will keep running for 80+ yards/game for the rest of his career. I don't believe anyone reasonably expects that to happen. Defenses will adjust, they will force him to make plays from the pocket, and he will adjust accordingly in his play style. He'll still scramble and gain rushing yards, but his carries will eventually dwindle down to maybe 5-10 per game instead of 10-15.

So far I've seen nothing to indicate his style of play isn't sustainable over long periods of time. He can make plays from anywhere, with his arm or legs, and he's still improving. I mean FFS he's 22 years old - he has like 2-3 more years until he even hits his prime.

You also have to take into account coaching and schemes. When our coaches start to get poached by other teams for HC/OC gigs and we start to adjust our scheme, a lot can/will change with that.

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Just now, MSURacerDT55 said:

Bruh, no....

Context:

-Athleticism wise, on par

-Arm talent, not in same country.

Exactly. Lamar is obviously better. Vick has a rocket arm. But that’s like saying because Joe Flacco had a stronger arm than Drew Brees he had better arm talent.

Lamar Jackson can diversify his passing angles for improved accuracy and catchability, he’s got a fast ball that he can throw just as strong as Vick. The only thing he doesn’t have that Vick had was a rocket to throw it 70-80 yards in the air. But everything in terms of football functionality, Lamar takes this.

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21 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Exactly. Lamar is obviously better. Vick has a rocket arm. But that’s like saying because Joe Flacco had a stronger arm than Drew Brees he had better arm talent.

Lamar Jackson can diversify his passing angles for improved accuracy and catchability, he’s got a fast ball that he can throw just as strong as Vick. The only thing he doesn’t have that Vick had was a rocket to throw it 70-80 yards in the air. But everything in terms of football functionality, Lamar takes this.

I still maintain this is the best throw I've ever seen in an NFL game. Lamar can't do this, but it doesn't mean he doesn't have the same or better arm talent than Vick did.

 

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1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

I see people posting that Vick was a better runner than Jackson. I don't buy that at all. Being a Saints fan I got to see plenty of Vick over the years, and he was undoubtedly electrifying as a runner. That said, Vick doesn't strike me as being more dangerous as a runner than Jackson. If anything Jackson looks to be a bit more dangerous running the ball, but part of that could also be that today's NFL is more offense friendly than 15 years ago during Vick's years playing with the Falcons. Because of this I have them pretty equal as runners.

However throwing the ball is an entirely different story. Vick was nowhere near Jackson throwing the ball, and when Vick did appear to improve throwing the ball with the Eagles, his athleticism clearly wasn't the same as it was prior to going to prison. In other words, at no time in Vick's career was he close to replicating what Jackson is currently doing.

As a Saints fan I disagree. If the Falcons did what the Ravens are currently doing with the pieces in place...Vick could have led the NFL in rushing. The Falcons just used him as a QB and not a RB. 

Vick had a better arm...no question. Jackson has better touch/accuracy...no question. I don’t think that either are particularly good at reading defenses...It’s a tough comparison because of the differences in their usage but I definitely liked Vick’s tools more. 

Edited by sammymvpknight
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1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I still maintain this is the best throw I've ever seen in an NFL game. Lamar can't do this, but it doesn't mean he doesn't have the same or better arm talent than Vick did.

 

Yeah, Lamar could never do that. Heck I don’t even think Flacco could do that. Kyle Boller could do it, but we all know how that went. 😂

Not to compare Vick with Kyle Boller, just their “vertical arm strength” comparison as two of the best I’ve ever seen.

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1 hour ago, sammymvpknight said:

As a Saints fan I disagree. If the Falcons did what the Ravens are currently doing with the pieces in place...Vick could have led the NFL in rushing. The Falcons just used him as a QB and not a RB. 

Vick had a better arm...no question. Jackson has better touch/accuracy...no question. I don’t think that either are particularly good at reading defenses...It’s a tough comparison because of the differences in their usage but I definitely liked Vick’s tools more. 

Have you watched Lamar? He’s consistently has gone through his progressions to his 3rd and 4th reads. If he doesn’t like the throw typically he tosses it to Andrews or his RB for the checkdown. Has he missed Hurst running free once or twice this year, yes, but literally every quarterback has missed a man at some point.

Reading defenses is actually a strength of Lamar’s. He reads them both from the running schematic AND the passing schematic. Perhaps you should watch more of him.

The only argument you could have here is that defenses have to play Lamar with more simple coverages and can’t mask things as much because of his speed.

But that’s not something Lamar controls. And Vick’s speed afforded him those same opportunities, that and coverages weren’t necessarily as complex back then as well. Everything was more straight up. The Tampa 2 is what led to that sort of revolution and it took some years before they’ve evolved to the current level.

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12 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Have you watched Lamar? He’s consistently has gone through his progressions to his 3rd and 4th reads. If he doesn’t like the throw typically he tosses it to Andrews or his RB for the checkdown. Has he missed Hurst running free once or twice this year, yes, but literally every quarterback has missed a man at some point.

Reading defenses is actually a strength of Lamar’s. He reads them both from the running schematic AND the passing schematic. Perhaps you should watch more of him.

The only argument you could have here is that defenses have to play Lamar with more simple coverages and can’t mask things as much because of his speed.

But that’s not something Lamar controls. And Vick’s speed afforded him those same opportunities, that and coverages weren’t necessarily as complex back then as well. Everything was more straight up. The Tampa 2 is what led to that sort of revolution and it took some years before they’ve evolved to the current level.

I’m pretty confident that if Jackson sustained a lower extremity injury ala Cam Newton that he wouldn’t be one of the the top half QBs in the league. The threat of the running game along with block has covered up deficiencies in his passing game. It’s a credit to his ability to run and the state of the Ravens offense right now. Vick never played in an offense remotely as competent. Even with his run ability he rarely got the opportunity to go through 3-4 progressions. It’s a bit of an unfair comparison. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

As a Saints fan I disagree. If the Falcons did what the Ravens are currently doing with the pieces in place...Vick could have led the NFL in rushing. The Falcons just used him as a QB and not a RB. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I just don't see it being probable at all with Vick even in today's NFL. Sure there are different offensive schemes being used currently, but for many teams these schemes have only worked briefly as defenses have gotten much better at stopping the RPO over the years. However, Jackson seems to be the outlier in this, as his ability to run the ball is better than just about any QB in NFL history (with Vick being the only one comparable), and his ability to pass the ball is better than most mobile QB's that have utilized the RPO. My suspicion if a young Vick was to magically be placed in today's NFL, he wouldn't be running the RPO as successful as Jackson. They may have similar abilities as runners, but given that defenses wouldn't have to worry nearly as much about Vick beating them with his arm, his numbers after a bit would likely fade to an extent in the RPO much like many other mobile QB's have. This isn't to say he couldn't still pull off some impressive numbers running the ball, but much of what makes Jackson so dangerous in this system is the ability he has shown with his arm, which presents a true pick your poison type option for defenses.

It could also be argued that during Vick's best years as a rusher, there really weren't any other QB's that were huge threats to run the ball. During this time there were guys like Culpepper, and Mcnabb that provided some threat with their legs, but for the most part defenses really didn't have much to worry about around the NFL in regards to mobile QB's. In other words there really wasn't a blueprint to stop a really mobile QB like Vick. However off the top of my head in the past 10 years or so we've had: Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, RG3, Colin Kaepernick, Tyrod Taylor, Terrelle Pryor, Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and I'm probably missing some others that are very capable of being dangerous with their legs and have to be accounted for by opposing defenses. This means that modern day defenses have had a lot more experience in stopping these dual threat type QB's, compared with when Vick played when this style QB was few and far between.  

 

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I dont know how people can say lamar is worse than vick as a runner, vick has slightly faster top speed, but lamar is bigger and more elusive. What exactly can Vick do that Lamar can't?

One thing i don't think vick would be able to do is run inside as much as lamar does without getting smacked. For example the seattle game touchdown run on 4th and 2.

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