Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?

[tyler735]

10 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

I’m pretty confident that if Jackson sustained a lower extremity injury ala Cam Newton that he wouldn’t be one of the the top half QBs in the league. The threat of the running game along with block has covered up deficiencies in his passing game. It’s a credit to his ability to run and the state of the Ravens offense right now. Vick never played in an offense remotely as competent. Even with his run ability he rarely got the opportunity to go through 3-4 progressions. It’s a bit of an unfair comparison. 

It could be argued that this was a product of Vick not being a competent QB. He had plenty of talent around him on offense, and possibly as much or more talent around him than Jackson currently has around him. During Vick's best season with the Falcons (the only one he played 16 games in his career) in 2006, he had:

Warrick Dunn as a RB 

Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and Ashley Lelie as WR's

Alge Crumpler as a TE

That is a solid group of players to be surrounded with. I don't think it's any coincidence that Roddy White went from 506 yards in 2006 with Vick throwing to him to 1202 yards in 2007 with Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, and Chris Redman throwing to him. Vick's deficiencies as a passer limited that offense quite a bit.  

[Ray Reed]

2 hours ago, tyler735 said:

It could be argued that this was a product of Vick not being a competent QB. He had plenty of talent around him on offense, and possibly as much or more talent around him than Jackson currently has around him. During Vick's best season with the Falcons (the only one he played 16 games in his career) in 2006, he had:

Warrick Dunn as a RB 

Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and Ashley Lelie as WR's

Alge Crumpler as a TE

That is a solid group of players to be surrounded with. I don't think it's any coincidence that Roddy White went from 506 yards in 2006 with Vick throwing to him to 1202 yards in 2007 with Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, and Chris Redman throwing to him. Vick's deficiencies as a passer limited that offense quite a bit.  

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/michael-vick-says-he-cheated-falcons-by-not-working-hard-enough/40450

Also not to mention "prime" athletic Vick is on the record saying he didn't ever really work to get better.

Lamar is already one of the hardest working players on our team - spent all offseason watching his own film and working with QB Gurus trying to fix his deficiencies.

Its not an accident that Lamar has made this gigantic of a leap in his play. He's worked really hard at it.

[VanS]

Vick was more talented.  Lamar is maximizing his talents better.

Also the Ravens are utilizing Lamar's talent better than Falcons did with Vick.

Overall I still would take Vick over Lamar.  He was faster, just as elusive, and had the stronger arm.

[SBLIII]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

Vick was more talented.  Lamar is maximizing his talents better.

Also the Ravens are utilizing Lamar's talent better than Falcons did with Vick.

Overall I still would take Vick over Lamar.  He was faster, just as elusive, and had the stronger arm.

The way I see it is Lamar breaks more tackles, better runner and is far more accurate.

[MWil23]

19 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I think it's fair to say that what he's doing now in terms of production is not sustainable, but that assumes that teams won't adjust and Lamar will keep running for 80+ yards/game for the rest of his career. I don't believe anyone reasonably expects that to happen. Defenses will adjust, they will force him to make plays from the pocket, and he will adjust accordingly in his play style. He'll still scramble and gain rushing yards, but his carries will eventually dwindle down to maybe 5-10 per game instead of 10-15.

This is what I've been trying to say for a few pages now. Thank you.

19 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

So far I've seen nothing to indicate his style of play isn't sustainable over long periods of time. He can make plays from anywhere, with his arm or legs, and he's still improving. I mean FFS he's 22 years old - he has like 2-3 more years until he even hits his prime.

The next 23 games will be critical for him. Is he a "flash in the pan" or can he/will he adjust to these defensive schemes. I've seen nothing to assume that he won't adjust, but am merely saying that 18-30 game stretch for a 2nd/3rd year QB is very indicative of future success historically speaking.

19 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

You also have to take into account coaching and schemes. When our coaches start to get poached by other teams for HC/OC gigs and we start to adjust our scheme, a lot can/will change with that.

Absolutely fair as well. They have smartly built around his strengths by building a very RB/TE/OL dominant team with a vertical threat on the outside. If they can add a few pieces in the other skill spots and fix some holes on defense, they could be loaded and dangerous for the next 5+ years regardless of losing these offensive guys.

[Ray Reed]

38 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

This is what I've been trying to say for a few pages now. Thank you.

The next 23 games will be critical for him. Is he a "flash in the pan" or can he/will he adjust to these defensive schemes. I've seen nothing to assume that he won't adjust, but am merely saying that 18-30 game stretch for a 2nd/3rd year QB is very indicative of future success historically speaking.

Absolutely fair as well. They have smartly built around his strengths by building a very RB/TE/OL dominant team with a vertical threat on the outside. If they can add a few pieces in the other skill spots and fix some holes on defense, they could be loaded and dangerous for the next 5+ years regardless of losing these offensive guys.

Odd. Didn't see a single Browns fan with this "let's wait and see" approach regarding Baker after his success last year.

Wonder why Baker was crowned as a future superstar QB this past offseason, and now that Lamar is playing at a superstar level its "well lets wait another 18-30 games before we call him truly good.

Oh wait. I have an idea.

[MWil23]

21 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Odd. Didn't see a single Browns fan with this "let's wait and see" approach regarding Baker after his success last year.

Then you didn't come into our forum this year Weeks 1-6 and check out the thread.

21 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Wonder why Baker was crowned as a future superstar QB this past offseason,

Which many have since stated was premature and pointed to countless other examples.

21 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

and now that Lamar is playing at a superstar level its "well lets wait another 18-30 games before we call him truly good.

I think that when you see examples of QB's who struggle games after their first season that was really good, such as Baker, Derek Anderson, RGIII, etc. OR guys who struggle early and then look really good afterwards (Aikman, Manning, Elway, Brees, Steve Young, etc.), you see that some guys can't adjust to the schemes during that timeframe, whereas others grow and develop. 

Still others are the REAL DEAL from word go (Mahomes, Marino, etc.) and that could very well include Lamar Jackson. If I were a Ravens fan, I'd be super optimistic and think the same way @AFlaccoSeagulls and others do. However, I also don't blame people for having tempered expectations and seeing how the rest of 2019 into the first half/all of 2020 go either based upon the regression that we've seen from Baker, Goff, Trubisky, and others throughout the history of this league.

21 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Oh wait. I have an idea.

I get that a lot of Browns fans and the national media went off and ran their mouths/anointed him "the next superstar QB", but I wasn't one of them. If you want to troll, so be it, plenty of us have it coming. I, however, am not one of them.

[VanS]

8 hours ago, SBLIII said:

The way I see it is Lamar breaks more tackles, better runner and is far more accurate.

Better runner is debatable.  We never saw Mike Vick in a scheme like this.  To me its really close.  Vick had more breakaway speed but everything else is real close.

In terms of accuracy that's debatable as well.  Lamar is great throwing inbetween the numbers and rarely throws outside.  The Ravens have done a great job schemining to his strengths.  That wasn't the case with Vick.  He threw all over the field.  I think if he was in Lamar's offense he would be just as accurate.

I think people forget how phenomenal Vick was.  He went #1 overall in the 2001 draft for a reason.

[bmorecareful]

I don’t see how accuracy is even remotely comparable between Vick and Lamar... Vick’s 56.2 completion percentage over his entire career is worst than Lamars 58.2 as a rookie... as far as running... Vick has splash plays but his actual production as a pro or in college has never been anything close to what Lamar has been able to do... we are talking about 14-3 in 17 career starts... by the end of this year barring injury Lamar will likely surpass Vick’s career single season highs in passing yardage.... QBR... rushing yardage... and total tds for a season in his first year as a starter... and he’s only 22:.. it’s amazing how every other young QB in the history of the world is expected/allowed time to develop yet despite being younger than the front runner for this years heisman Lamar Jackson has no chance of getting better and what we see is all we ever will get until he either gets hurt or becomes a worse player... Now mind u I have no issue with other fan bases not supporting or being skeptical of a guy on my team But this witch hunt is getting ridiculous but hey it is what it is... The thing about it is if this is actually the player he is gonna be and lord forbid he actually gets better...  sheesh It’s gonna be rough lol... 

[AlNFL19]

1 hour ago, bmorecareful said:

I don’t see how accuracy is even remotely comparable between Vick and Lamar... Vick’s 56.2 completion percentage over his entire career is worst than Lamars 58.2 as a rookie... 

I mean, Vick's CMP%+ (CMP% Index based on the performance of QBs that year, where 100 is average and higher is better) was 85.5 to Lamar's rookie year 80, and completion percentage doesn't tell you everything about accuracy. But I think you're right overall - I'd call Jackson more accurate than Vick (his CMP%+ this year is at 106, which would tie Vick's best season ever - and only season north of 100). 

Also I'm pretty sure @VanS was a fairly huge fan of Jackson coming out of the draft, for what it's worth.

[Heinz D.]

Yes. 

 

[VanS]

6 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

I don’t see how accuracy is even remotely comparable between Vick and Lamar... Vick’s 56.2 completion percentage over his entire career is worst than Lamars 58.2 as a rookie... as far as running... Vick has splash plays but his actual production as a pro or in college has never been anything close to what Lamar has been able to do... we are talking about 14-3 in 17 career starts... by the end of this year barring injury Lamar will likely surpass Vick’s career single season highs in passing yardage.... QBR... rushing yardage... and total tds for a season in his first year as a starter... and he’s only 22:.. it’s amazing how every other young QB in the history of the world is expected/allowed time to develop yet despite being younger than the front runner for this years heisman Lamar Jackson has no chance of getting better and what we see is all we ever will get until he either gets hurt or becomes a worse player... Now mind u I have no issue with other fan bases not supporting or being skeptical of a guy on my team But this witch hunt is getting ridiculous but hey it is what it is... The thing about it is if this is actually the player he is gonna be and lord forbid he actually gets better...  sheesh It’s gonna be rough lol... 

You can't compare stats for guys who played during different eras in different offenses.  We have no idea how Vick would do in today's NFL in an offense geared to his skill set like we see the Ravens doing right now with Lamar.  This is the shortcoming with using stats as the bedrock of your opinion when discussing sports.

For the record, I was the one who said BEFORE THE DRAFT Lamar Jackson should be drafted 1st overall and said his FLOOR was Michael Vick.  I love the guy and am rooting for him to win the Super Bowl this season.  But what I won't do is allow the legacy and talent of Michael Vick to be disrespected by some of the same people who doubted Lamar could play QB in the NFL in the first place.  Don't know what your position was on Lamar before the draft but typically the guys who base all their sports analysis on stats rather than the eye test tend to be the ones who were saying before the 2018 Draft that Lamar wasn't accurate enough to be a NFL QB eventhough the film said otherwise.

Edited November 22, 2019 by VanS

[tyler735]

I took a look back at some of the comments made about Lamar as a QB prospect on this forum, as I recall taking some flak for claiming he was the most talented QB in his draft and possibly had the highest ceiling of any QB I've watched coming into the draft. I gotta say it's funny to read the comments stating that he will need to switch positions, that it wouldn't be wise to spend a 1st round pick on a gadget player, and that he doesn't have "the build" to hold up in the NFL. It's funny to see how things have worked out with him being a legit MVP contender in his 1st full season as a starter.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

We should also take a second to step back and realize how far these Lamar threads have come. From comparing him to Mitchell Trubiski and Josh Allen, to comparing him to Mike Vick's prime. We did it, boys.

[diamondbull424]

49 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

We should also take a second to step back and realize how far these Lamar threads have come. From comparing him to Mitchell Trubiski and Josh Allen, to comparing him to Mike Vick's prime. We did it, boys.

Whoa don’t you dare and forget that the very first of these threads to ever come up was comparing Lamar Jackson to friggin Josh Rosen. Yes that thread happened THIS SEASON!!!