Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?

[VanS]

On 11/23/2019 at 2:32 PM, bmorecareful said:

Vick had 1200 yards passing and 600 yards rushing one year and 2000 yards passing and a little under 700 yards rushing his second year at  Virginia Tech outside of highlight clips there really isn’t much of a comparison... at all levels Lamar was and is the better player... Men lie Women lie but numbers can’t... it’s all In The black and white 

Its almost like you are an 11 year old who doesn't know what football was like when Vick played.  You know these spread offenses you see today where QBs take snaps from the shotgun every play and they throw for 400 yards every game, well they weren't common back in the day. 

When Vick played at Va-Tech he took almost every snap from under center and played in a traditional pro style offense.  I'm sure if you gave him the sort of offenses Lamar has had at Louisville and now with the Ravens his numbers would look a lot different.

[VanS]

2 hours ago, N4L said:

Even a broken coocoo clock is less annoying than the two correct takes you've ever had 

(Something something, broken clock, twice a day, coocoo) 

Well those 2 correct takes are more significant than most takes made on here.

How many people can say they advocated for Lamar Jackson (the hottest thing in the NFL right now) to be taken #1 overall in the 2018 draft when many were saying he wasn't even fit to be a NFL QB?  I'm sure if you were on that island back before the draft in 2018 then you would also be sticking your chest out right now.

[VanS]

On 11/22/2019 at 10:33 PM, lavar703 said:

What? 34-year old Hokie fan and I only remember Vick getting hurt once and that was when his ankle got rolled up on against Pitt. I’m pretty sure Grant Noel came in and finished the game and then we played Miami and Nike made Mike a special cleat but he clearly wasn’t himself. Other than that instance, he didn’t get hurt that I recall. And he was built more like a RB than a QB. Stocky and muscular and probably the fastest human being I’ve ever seen on a football field.

The idea that Lamar is stronger is laughable at best. Durable? You can’t even make this comment yet. Vick was Barry Sanders playing QB. Lamar is killing it and I hope for his sake the Ravens don’t ruin him running him 20 times a game but we don’t need to try and push Vick down to prop up Jackson. 

The only people that would try to knock down Vick to prop up Jackson are lil kids who never saw him play.  Like you I remember Mike Vick at Virginia Tech.  In fact my earliest memory of a national title game in college was when he played Florida State in 1999.  He became my first favorite college football player that night.  

Lamar Jackson is awesome.  But so was Mike Vick.  No need to try and tear down a legend like Vick just to give Lamar props.

[ET80]

3 hours ago, VanS said:

I remember getting flack before the draft for saying prime Michael Vick was his FLOOR.  Now those same people are saying he's already better than Vick ever was.  And I'm the one who has to defend Vick now like I did with Lamar before the 2018 draft.

Funny how the tune has changed.

You also compared Josh Dobbs to a HoF level Randall Cunningham, so... I guess that evens out?

No, actually. No, you still owe us about five or six good QB takes to get past that nonsense.

[VanS]

24 minutes ago, ET80 said:

You also compared Josh Dobbs to a HoF level Randall Cunningham, so... I guess that evens out?

No, actually. No, you still owe us about five or six good QB takes to get past that nonsense.

Let me ask you this.  If in the next year or so Josh Dobbs has a Lamar Jackson-esque breakout season where he's an MVP candidate at this point in the season, what will that make me?

I only ask this cause I still have the utmost confidence in Josh Dobbs and I don't want to be told in a years time that take means nothing because of some other point I may have made.

[ET80]

Just now, VanS said:

Let me ask you this.  If in the next year or so Josh Dobbs has a Lamar Jackson-esque breakout season where he's an MVP candidate at this point in the season, what will that make me?

It'll make you the guy who refused to believe Antonio Callaway is a bad person. 

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

I only ask this cause I still have the utmost confidence in Josh Dobbs and I don't want to be told in a years time that take means nothing because of some other point I may have made

This is what bothers people the most. At this point, you have quintupled down on several bad takes. REALLY bad takes, takes that we called out as incredibly bad at the moment you made them.

The mental gymnastics you play in your own head to justify these bad takes (if you look into his eyes you'll see, you can tell he's going to be elite after one game, etc) only make the situation worse,  because you assume we're all stupid enough to buy into it. Literally nothing you say makes a lick of sense to a rational thinking person.

Admitting a bad take would probably get you further than getting the next 20 correct. Just being honest. 

[VanS]

14 minutes ago, ET80 said:

It'll make you the guy who refused to believe Antonio Callaway is a bad person. 

This is what bothers people the most. At this point, you have quintupled down on several bad takes. REALLY bad takes, takes that we called out as incredibly bad at the moment you made them.

The mental gymnastics you play in your own head to justify these bad takes (if you look into his eyes you'll see, you can tell he's going to be elite after one game, etc) only make the situation worse,  because you assume we're all stupid enough to buy into it. Literally nothing you say makes a lick of sense to a rational thinking person.

Admitting a bad take would probably get you further than getting the next 20 correct. Just being honest. 

So you want me to admit I'm wrong for your sake even if I don't believe it?

There hasn't been a big enough sample size yet to determine anything about Dobbs.  He's only thrown a few regular season passes.  He's also just 24 years old.  I feel just as good about the Dobbs/Cunningham comparison as I did about the Kamara/Faulk comparison.  And I remember that was also considered laughable when I said it before the 2017 draft.

Just don't say that I lucked my way onto Dobbs like ya'll did with Kamara when he takes over the league.

Edited November 26, 2019 by VanS

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, VanS said:

So you want me to admit I'm wrong for your sake even if I don't believe it?

And that's even worse. In your head... you really believe you're right.

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

Just don't say that I lucked my way onto Dobbs like ya'll did with Kamara when he takes over the league.

I'm fairly certain I'll never have to say that, because Josh Dobbs is not good at football. You seem to be the only person who doesn't see that.

[bmorecareful]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Its almost like you are an 11 year old who doesn't know what football was like when Vick played.  You know these spread offenses you see today where QBs take snaps from the shotgun every play and they throw for 400 yards every game, well they weren't common back in the day. 

When Vick played at Va-Tech he took almost every snap from under center and played in a traditional pro style offense.  I'm sure if you gave him the sort of offenses Lamar has had at Louisville and now with the Ravens his numbers would look a lot different.

Naw bro I’m 35 years old and I watched Vick play he was always more of a what if type of player than an actual elite player... Elite talent.. yes... elite player... not so much... always left so much to be desired... prior to Andy Reid he was known as a coach killer... people like to rewrite history... retired nfl player are sorta like a regular person that died... they are mostly remembered in a better way than they actually lived/played.... Vick was never as good at V tech as Lamar was in Louisville... And he was never as good in the nfl as Lamar has been this year and Lamar is only 22 years old... if u think different ur basing life off nostalgia and not actually evaluating the sport... the ravens with Lamar Jackson under center haven’t punted since the 3rd quarter of the patriots game... that’s almost 4 games lol... it’s getting to the point where we may be watching the best player we have ever seen... It just is what it is... he has the 3 highest qbrs in the history of the stat in the same season  which is also his first year as a starter... I don’t really see a reasonable debate for Vick at this point... but hey I’m a ravens fan and was saying Lamar was the greatest college football player ever when he was at Louisville... so call me a homer I’m cool with it... but at least the stats support my opinion... y’all just say we didn’t see Vick but actually I did and like I said he was always potential over production... he was only a great qb for a single season under Andy Reid beyond that he was a highlight reel who made amazing plays from time to time which allowed him to mask his average to below average actual qb play... 

[VanS]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Josh Dobbs is not good at football. You seem to be the only person who doesn't see that.

Nothing better than standing by yourself on something that turns out to be right.

[ET80]

Just now, VanS said:

Nothing better than standing by yourself on something that turns out to be right.

But you're going to be horribly wrong on this one. Dobbs is out of the league next season, and will start up his successful career at Lockheed Martin. Not too shabby for Dobbs, actually... and actually par for the course as far as everyone assumed his career is going to be. He was never going to be a starting NFL QB because he's not good at football.

When that day comes, I'm sure you'll still be standing on your hill and waxing poetic on his "heart of a warrior" or how he "sacrificed his career in pursuit of the betterment of society" or some other contrite drivel. You'll always have a response other than "well, I guess I got that one wrong..."

Which is why you're wrong on just about all of your takes.

[VanS]

1 minute ago, bmorecareful said:

Naw bro I’m 35 years old and I watched Vick play he was always more of a what if type of player than an actual elite player... Elite talent.. yes... elite player... not so much... always left so much to be desired... prior to Andy Reid he was known as a coach killer... people like to rewrite history... retired nfl player are sorta like a regular person that died... they are mostly remembered in a better way than they actually lived/played.... Vick was never as good at V tech as Lamar was in Louisville... And he was never as good in the nfl as Lamar has been this year and Lamar is only 22 years old... if u think different ur basing life off nostalgia and not actually evaluating the sport... the ravens with Lamar Jackson under center haven’t punted since the 3rd quarter of the patriots game... that’s almost 4 games lol... it’s getting to the point where we may be watching the best player we have ever seen... It just is what it is... he has the 3 highest qbrs in the history of the stat in the same season  which is also his first year as a starter... I don’t really see a reasonable debate for Vick at this point... but hey I’m a ravens fan and was saying Lamar was the greatest college football player ever when he was at Louisville... so call me a homer I’m cool with it... but at least the stats support my opinion... y’all just say we didn’t see Vick but actually I did and like I said he was always potential over production... he was only a great qb for a single season under Andy Reid beyond that he was a highlight reel who made amazing plays from time to time which allowed him to mask his average to below average actual qb play... 

If you're saying Vick never fufilled his potential because of his own shortcomings (primarily because of his poor work ethic), then I agree.  However, you can't just gloss over how much football has changed since 1999 when Michael Vick played his first game at Virginia Tech.  Lamar Jackson has played during an era where bigger numbers are put up and in offenses more conducive to his skill set than Vick did in college or the NFL.

I don't have a problem with you saying Lamar is better than Vick in the NFL or was better in college.  Remember I'm the one who said before the 2018 draft that Lamar's FLOOR as an NFL QB was prime Mike Vick with the potential to be much better.  My problem is with you using stats to say Lamar is better given how much the game has changed in the last 20 years.  If you put Vick in Lamar's offense at Louisville or Baltimore his numbers would look radically different.

To not acknowledge how much college football and the NFL have changed since 1999 is why I questioned your age.  Anybody who remembers what the game was like back then knows how silly it is to compare stats from that era to today.  Its like comparing home runs numbers from the steriods era to today.  Its was a totally different time.

[VanS]

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

But you're going to be horribly wrong on this one. Dobbs is out of the league next season.

What's your hurry?  At least let this play itself out before declaring the kid's career over.  Sports has a funny way of always surprising us.

 

[ET80]

2 minutes ago, VanS said:

What's your hurry?  At least let this play itself out before declaring the kid's career over.  Sports has a funny way of always surprising us.

 

Sports also has a way to doing exactly what we thought it would do. And Josh Dobbs finding his way out of the league this off-season and into the private sector is exactly what all of us (sans you) see happening.

[VanS]

Just now, ET80 said:

Sports also has a way to doing exactly what we thought it would do. And Josh Dobbs finding his way out of the league this off-season and into the private sector is exactly what all of us see happening.

Good.  Now I better not see you flip flopping in the future if that doesn't happen.  I don't want to hear any excuses from you if Dobbs turns out to be a baller.