Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?

[bmorecareful]

18 minutes ago, VanS said:

If you're saying Vick never fufilled his potential because of his own shortcomings (primarily because of his poor work ethic), then I agree.  However, you can't just gloss over how much football has changed since 1999 when Michael Vick played his first game at Virginia Tech.  Lamar Jackson has played during an era where bigger numbers are put up and in offenses more conducive to his skill set than Vick did in college or the NFL.

I don't have a problem with you saying Lamar is better than Vick in the NFL or was better in college.  Remember I'm the one who said before the 2018 draft that Lamar's FLOOR as an NFL QB was prime Mike Vick with the potential to be much better.  My problem is with you using stats to say Lamar is better given how much the game has changed in the last 20 years.  If you put Vick in Lamar's offense at Louisville or Baltimore his numbers would look radically different.

To not acknowledge how much college football and the NFL have changed since 1999 is why I questioned your age.  Anybody who remembers what the game was like back then knows how silly it is to compare stats from that era to today.  Its like comparing home runs numbers from the steriods era to today.  Its was a totally different time.

The key word in this Original post was PLAYER... if we talking talent... yes Vick was as talented if not more talented... I’m talking actual play though... and that’s where I don’t thing there is a real comparison... Vick is a career 56 percent passer... he was never really a great qb and is the main reason so many doubt Lamar Now... His inability for whatever reason to never be a complete dual threat is why no one believes that any one can ever be one.. by the time he become an adequate enough passer he was no longer an elite runner... So to say anyone has ever seen anything like what Lamar is doing is disrespectful to what he is displaying at the position 

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, VanS said:

Good.  Now I better not see you flip flopping in the future if that doesn't happen.  I don't want to hear any excuses from you if Dobbs turns out to be a baller.

I'll be the first to admit I was wrong - I do it daily on this site, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.

I don't think you'll admit you were wrong. Which is why all of us will call you on it.

[VanS]

3 minutes ago, bmorecareful said:

Vick is a career 56 percent passer...

Here's my problem with you.  Citing numbers with zero context.  Vick also never had the liberty of playing in a scheme like the one Lamar has right now where he's throwing primarily in the middle of the field with the benefit of a run fake in the pistol sucking the linebackers in.   Give Vick the same scheme Lamar has right now and that completion percentage improves greatly.

Vick never had a team totally mold its offense to what he does best.  His entire career was spent trying to conform his talents to traditional pro style schemes.  I think you are massively underestimating the impact scheme had on Vick and Lamar's numbers respectively.

[VanS]

24 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I don't think you'll admit you were wrong. Which is why all of us will call you on it.

I actually have admitted to being wrong on multiple players already.  Most of them umprompted.   For example, I admitted I was wrong in my pre-draft assessment of Courtland Sutton last year after his first preseason game when he looked like a baller.  I've also said that if Dobbs never actually plays significant snaps in the NFL that I won't use his lack of opportunity as an excuse.   I'll admit to being wrong about him.

I just think its premature to completely write off a 24 year old QB who has thrown just a dozen regular season passes in the NFL.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by VanS

[bmorecareful]

21 minutes ago, VanS said:

Here's my problem with you.  Citing numbers with zero context.  Vick also never had the liberty of playing in a scheme like the one Lamar has right now where he's throwing primarily in the middle of the field with the benefit of a run fake in the pistol sucking the linebackers in.   Give Vick the same scheme Lamar has right now and that completion percentage improves greatly.

Vick never had a team totally mold its offense to what he does best.  His entire career was spent trying to conform his talents to traditional pro style schemes.  I think you are massively underestimating the impact scheme had on Vick and Lamar's numbers respectively.

I don’t live in a word of hypotheticals... like my aunt used to always say... if if was a fifth we’d all be drunk... look bro All I can go off of is what actually happened... And based upon that and that alone... I don’t see a comparison that makes sense... but hey to each is own... all I know is... without injury derailing it... Lamar will be mentioned more with Steve young than mike Vick 

[VanS]

5 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

I don’t live in a word of hypotheticals... like my aunt used to always say... if if was a fifth we’d all be drunk... look bro All I can go off of is what actually happened... And based upon that and that alone... I don’t see a comparison that makes sense... but hey to each is own... all I know is... without injury derailing it... Lamar will be mentioned more with Steve young than mike Vick 

Hypotheticals matter when we're talking league wide changes in playing style and schemes that have affected stats.

Do you think a QB like Matt Stafford who is going to obilterate the passing numbers of almost every QB already in the Hall of Fame deserves to be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Numbers without context are meaningless. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

31 minutes ago, VanS said:

Hypotheticals matter when we're talking league wide changes in playing style and schemes that have affected stats.

Do you think a QB like Matt Stafford who is going to obilterate the passing numbers of almost every QB already in the Hall of Fame deserves to be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Numbers without context are meaningless. 

Michael Vick wasn't an accurate passer no matter how much context you want to insert into the numbers, though.

[RandyMossIsBoss]

 

7 hours ago, VanS said:

Here's my problem with you.  Citing numbers with zero context.  Vick also never had the liberty of playing in a scheme like the one Lamar has right now where he's throwing primarily in the middle of the field with the benefit of a run fake in the pistol sucking the linebackers in.   Give Vick the same scheme Lamar has right now and that completion percentage improves greatly.

Vick never had a team totally mold its offense to what he does best.  His entire career was spent trying to conform his talents to traditional pro style schemes.  I think you are massively underestimating the impact scheme had on Vick and Lamar's numbers respectively.

This can’t be overstated enough.

 

Here’s my thing though, if you put Vick into Lamar’s situation, I really doubt his numbers would be better. To me he was slightly quicker, slightly stronger arm, but never had the touch Lamar showed even in college. So that leaves us with this fact: I’m actually seeing Lamar already play at a level and producing numbers that I can only hypothesize Vick could match.... and with that being said, it would be unfair not to give the nod to the man actually doing it, Lamar. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by RandyMossIsBoss

[VanS]

4 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Michael Vick wasn't an accurate passer no matter how much context you want to insert into the numbers, though.

If you limit him to throws inbetween the numbers out of the pistol formation where he's a threat to run on every snap then I'm sure his completion percentage would improve.

You can't dismiss that the offense the Ravens are running is playing to Lamar's strengths more than any offense Vick ever played in.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

35 minutes ago, VanS said:

If you limit him to throws inbetween the numbers out of the pistol formation where he's a threat to run on every snap then I'm sure his completion percentage would improve.

You can't dismiss that the offense the Ravens are running is playing to Lamar's strengths more than any offense Vick ever played in.

Lamar hasn't been throwing to wide open dudes all year long though so I'm still not sure where you're going with this...

[VanS]

5 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Lamar hasn't been throwing to wide open dudes all year long though so I'm still not sure where you're going with this...

But he has been throwing mostly across the middle of the field (his strength) and not outside the numbers (his weakness).  He has also had the benefit of throwing out of the pistol formation more than most which allows him to run fake sucking in the linebackers giving him more room to throw behind them across the middle as he looks for holes in the zone defenses.

These are formations and schemes Vick never had the benefit of utlizing.   Vick didn't have an offense built around him that used the fact he could run as a weapon in the pass game.  Vick mostly ran a traditional pro style offense and utlized his legs as a plus when things broke down.   Which was typical of most athletic QBs in the NFL until now.  What the Ravens have done with Lamar is unique.  They have built their offense around his skills as a runner rather than just having him run a traditional offense and using his legs as a plus.  This is what NFL teams should have been doing in the past with talents like Vick, Cunningham, etc.

Edited November 27, 2019 by VanS

[diamondbull424]

19 hours ago, VanS said:

The only people that would try to knock down Vick to prop up Jackson are lil kids who never saw him play.  Like you I remember Mike Vick at Virginia Tech.  In fact my earliest memory of a national title game in college was when he played Florida State in 1999.  He became my first favorite college football player that night.  

Lamar Jackson is awesome.  But so was Mike Vick.  No need to try and tear down a legend like Vick just to give Lamar props.

Or... you know, they could actually be old enough to have watched Vick. Had the Mike Vick cleats for football. But you know, have gotten older and realized the many limitations Vick had from his lack of work ethic in analyzing the opposing defense, to his inconsistent foot mechanics, etc.

So when I say he “didn’t last as a runner in college” and the evidence shows that please do better with your retorts vs attempting to sneak diss.

Because I also pounded the table for Lamar Jackson before my team would go on to draft him. What’s more I predicted that Lamar would be in the MVP conversation prior to this season starting and many questioned my take as “homer” so no, you don’t have some definitive understanding of Michael Vick the pro player and Lamar Jackson the pro player.

Mike Vick has never put forth a season like the one Jackson is currently having. Sure if Vick had the same work ethic and familial positive influence and was drafted to a high class organization and played in an offense geared towards his skillset and he was smart enough as a runner to not throw his body around with reckless abandon with somersault front flips, etc... he might have been as good as Lamar Jackson.

But there is no evidence to suggest this. It’s nothing more than hypothetical. The facts are that as it stands Lamar’s peak ability trumps Vick’s peak ability. He’s the perfect merger of Eagle Vick’s QB ability and Falcons Vick athleticism, only with superior ball accuracy and more versatile passing styles but less air yard power for the massive deep ball.

[VanS]

14 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Mike Vick has never put forth a season like the one Jackson is currently having. Sure if Vick had the same work ethic and familial positive influence and was drafted to a high class organization and played in an offense geared towards his skillset and he was smart enough as a runner to not throw his body around with reckless abandon with somersault front flips, etc... he might have been as good as Lamar Jackson.

But there is no evidence to suggest this. It’s nothing more than hypothetical. The facts are that as it stands Lamar’s peak ability trumps Vick’s peak ability. He’s the perfect merger of Eagle Vick’s QB ability and Falcons Vick athleticism, only with superior ball accuracy and more versatile passing styles but less air yard power for the massive deep ball.

Well my opinion is that even with a poor work ethic Michael Vick was so physically talented that if he was placed in an offense similar to the one Lamar now operates he would have just as much success.  I know the skill set I saw in Mike Vick and it was everything we've seen from Lamar and then some.

 

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, VanS said:

Well my opinion is that even with a poor work ethic Michael Vick was so physically talented that if he was placed in an offense similar to the one Lamar now operates he would have just as much success.  I know the skill set I saw in Mike Vick and it was everything we've seen from Lamar and then some.

 

Cool story bro. You don’t obliterate grown men and lead potentially the best offense in NFL history by just showing up to the stadium. But I’m glad you feel that strongly about Vick. I’ll just agree to disagree and laugh at the absurdity. Especially since it’s a hypothetical that can’t be proven/unproven or even has any basis in reality. Name me one NFL player that was able to dominate the opposing teams over an entire NFL season just by showing up to the stadium and perhaps I’d be willing to concede the point.

[Ozzy]

Vick did play in a totally different era of football mind you, if Vick played in the NFL today I think he would be possibly even better than Lamar Jackson is.  Vick played when players could literally crush the QB and totally walk away with no foul and do it again the next play, so that has to be taken into context with Lamar.