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Minor Niner News Twos: Electric Boogaloos


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37 minutes ago, NinerNation21 said:

I agree with Sherman. I love the guy, but Verrett and Moseley are our starters moving forward. I'm ok with letting Juice, K'Waun, Tartt, McKinnon, Coleman, and maybe even Bourne go. Verrett, Williams, Reed, Hyder, and maybe Garland and Jones are my priorities. 

Something needs to be done with Jimmy's contract, I just don't know what that is. Call me a homer but I'm not ready to move on from Jimmy yet. 

I don't see Hyder being back. He's played his way into a sizeable contract next year as someone's strong-side DE.

Williams is very good in this scheme but not someone I would spend top free agent dollars to retain. Before Taylor got hurt I thought he had showed enough to be brought back to replace Williams on a modest deal. You can find a quality NB in free agency that won't cost nearly as much as Williams...I'm good with letting him walk.

Jones is a luxury at this point. Love him as our NT but with Kinlaw and guys like Givens and Street ascending, I just think that's a position we can fill later in the draft. And don't sleep on Daniels, I think he could be even better than Jones in a couple of years. But I think that's a position with the aforementioned names that we can add through the draft. 

I think Reed is doable. Depends if he'd like to go elsewhere and start though. Never know how players feel and he might feel after a complete season concussion-free, he could go somewhere else and be a viable starter. 

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1 hour ago, NinerNation21 said:

I agree with Sherman. I love the guy, but Verrett and Moseley are our starters moving forward. I'm ok with letting Juice, K'Waun, Tartt, McKinnon, Coleman, and maybe even Bourne go. Verrett, Williams, Reed, Hyder, and maybe Garland and Jones are my priorities. 

So many of this just depends on the money. Even though I'd advocate walking away from a number of them, I'd guess that a decent chunk of them what we would do is sign them to multi year deals with lower first year cap hits. 

JV is 30 and has never played a full season, with a rather legendary injury history. I actually brought this up last year on a pod  with y2 about what a weird position he puts you in if he has a successful year. You can't really give him big money because you can't really count on him. I was just a year early on that lol. I'd love to have him back..but when he gets hurt in week three are we all going to throw our hands up and start talking about how bad our injury luck is? We do have to start moving away from guys who put us in that position. Tartt is the same boat. Hyder is 30 years old, having a career season like JV....he hasn't had the injury history as bad, though he has gotten nicked up and missed seasons before. But basically, buying high on players at 30 years old coming off career seasons is just a mistake in my opinion and I'm typically going to let them go. I understand that I'll probably miss some players here and there, but I think you're going to be right far more than you're wrong going with that strategy. So it will certainly depend on contract, though with Blair as an in house replacement for Hyder, I see the odds that he's back as slim. 

There should be no question on Jet and Coleman...I'm not even sure why the latter is on the team this year. That was a bad misfire by the team. Would certainly be nice if we had that additional 5 million for this year & next. Bourne makes me sad and that will be a money thing. But he's not impactful enough to make 3x the salary of someone like Benjamin.  Really hoping we bring Reed back, N4L and I spoke on that and I think we both agree that it may actually come down to what Reed wants more so than anything we do ourselves. So hopefully he'd like to be back.

I'm with @757-NINER...writing is on the wall with Jones, he's gone. N4L and I talked about this for just a second last night. I'd expect Kinlaw / Daniels as 1 techs in the future with Givens, AA, Blair (I'm guessing he's re-signed to a cheap one year deal), Street on the interior. And I still wouldn't completely rule out bringing back Solly on a cheap deal. I'd like to have Garland back, but I'm wondering if he doesn't just retire. Wasn't he close to retiring this year before we brought him back? K'waun's market could be weak, and I'd love to have him back if it craters a little. Not paying him too much though. As 757 alluded to, it's just an easier position to successfully find players at. 

1 hour ago, NinerNation21 said:

Something needs to be done with Jimmy's contract, I just don't know what that is. Call me a homer but I'm not ready to move on from Jimmy yet. 

So this comment just sort of speaks volumes to me about Jimmy because it's not like he has a heavy cap hit. He's not even top 10 in the NFL in terms of QB cap hits next year. The fact that we feel his play & contract is out of whack, and that we are questioning 3 years in whether or not he's the guy just says so much. It just really sucks that he's QB purgatory...I'm not really looking to fall into the Andy Dalton Bengals trap to be honest, and that has to be where everyone largely considers him right now because I don't know how anyone looks across the league and would put him over half the league QBs. I also don't think that reducing his salary is an option right now to be honest. Barrows has talked about it before, but it's too  much of a signal to everyone that we don't have faith in him / he's not worth his money. Especially given the time left on the deal. If he's not good enough to keep me from questioning whether or not he's my guy moving forward, I just can't bring myself to tie myself to him even longer by restructuring his deal. I think he's the QB next year, but I do believe that he's basically on his same contract for the most part while we draft a guy in like round 2.

The fact that we are restructuring everyone but Jimmy says a lot, so I think we will continue to remain creative in that regard. If we cut Dee Ford, we save 6 million. If we tell him we are going to cut him unless he takes a paycut, we could save even more. Knock him down to 5 million base, his, maybe throw out the final two years, his cap hit for next season is only about 10 and we save over 10 million in space suddenly. 

I seriously hate this off season so much LOL. The good news is that there are going to be a LOT of quality players hitting the market as cuts because of the cap maneuvering people have to do, so we aren't going to have to overspend on anyone, including our own guys like JV, Hyder, etc. So we may be able to get them on good deals to come back. The downside is that we probably have to let them hit the open market to figure that out. 

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1 hour ago, 757-NINER said:

I don't see Hyder being back. He's played his way into a sizeable contract next year as someone's strong-side DE.

Williams is very good in this scheme but not someone I would spend top free agent dollars to retain. Before Taylor got hurt I thought he had showed enough to be brought back to replace Williams on a modest deal. You can find a quality NB in free agency that won't cost nearly as much as Williams...I'm good with letting him walk.

Jones is a luxury at this point. Love him as our NT but with Kinlaw and guys like Givens and Street ascending, I just think that's a position we can fill later in the draft. And don't sleep on Daniels, I think he could be even better than Jones in a couple of years. But I think that's a position with the aforementioned names that we can add through the draft. 

I think Reed is doable. Depends if he'd like to go elsewhere and start though. Never know how players feel and he might feel after a complete season concussion-free, he could go somewhere else and be a viable starter. 

The Williams I was referring to in my priorities list was Trent Williams. I listed K'Waun under the list I'd be ok with letting walk.

You're right that Jones is a luxury, but he also wouldn't break the bank. I'd be surprised if signed a contract with an APY of above $1.5 mil. If the team feels that Givens is ready for a bigger role at the expense of Jones, I'm all for it. With or without Jones, the investment to our DT group is peanuts so no real harm either way, financially.

Reed, Blair, and even Verrett to an extent could all be had for "show me" contracts. Show me you're healthy for an extended period of time and you'll get your money. I'm thinking we could resign Reed to a 1 yr. $1.2 mil contract with incentives for achievements on the field. Now, if Reed balls out for the rest of the season, this will be a moot point as he will be more attractive. If he continues to not see the ball much, we might be able to squeak him through with a small deal.

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22 minutes ago, Forge said:

So this comment just sort of speaks volumes to me about Jimmy because it's not like he has a heavy cap hit. He's not even top 10 in the NFL in terms of QB cap hits next year. The fact that we feel his play & contract is out of whack, and that we are questioning 3 years in whether or not he's the guy just says so much.

Honestly, it's not even about that for me. It's that his cap hit, relative to the rest of the team and the state of our cap in 2021, hurts. We're crunched for money and his contract has wiggle room since the dead cap is so small. I'm not ready to move on from Jimmy. I think this season was a wash for him because of injuries. Yes, he has his faults but he was a damn good QB last year and good things happen for this team when he starts. 

If he didn't get the high ankle sprain, we'd probably have 2 or 3 more wins right now and be 7-4 or 8-3 with a clear shot at winning the division and hosting a playoff game. He's worth the money. I'm just worried that the 49ers are going to have to play financial gymnastics to field a competitive team next season. 

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15 minutes ago, NinerNation21 said:

Honestly, it's not even about that for me. It's that his cap hit, relative to the rest of the team and the state of our cap in 2021, hurts. We're crunched for money and his contract has wiggle room since the dead cap is so small. I'm not ready to move on from Jimmy. I think this season was a wash for him because of injuries. Yes, he has his faults but he was a damn good QB last year and good things happen for this team when he starts. 

If he didn't get the high ankle sprain, we'd probably have 2 or 3 more wins right now and be 7-4 or 8-3 with a clear shot at winning the division and hosting a playoff game. He's worth the money. I'm just worried that the 49ers are going to have to play financial gymnastics to field a competitive team next season. 

I'm not sure how we would probably have 2-3 more wins when the only games are Philly, Miami, Green Bay and New Orleans, right?  Id' give us the Eagles win, but the other three are far from locks or "probable" victories. Certainly possible, but I can't say for sure we are winning those games.

But yeah, we'll just disagree on Jimmy. At this point, most people know my stance. I do think he's probably back next year while we groom Mac Jones or Trask or Newman (shout out @757-NINER) to take over the next season, though. Jimmy will keep us relevant and in the hunt at the very least, and I don't think that a swap out for a vet is likely unless we are getting Cousins on the cheap (which would require Minnesota to cut him first, which I'm not certain they would and there would still be plenty of teams in on Cousins, which probably ruins getting him cheap)  

 

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54 minutes ago, NinerNation21 said:

Honestly, it's not even about that for me. It's that his cap hit, relative to the rest of the team and the state of our cap in 2021, hurts. We're crunched for money and his contract has wiggle room since the dead cap is so small. I'm not ready to move on from Jimmy. I think this season was a wash for him because of injuries. Yes, he has his faults but he was a damn good QB last year and good things happen for this team wh

If he didn't get the high ankle sprain, we'd probably have 2 or 3 more wins right now and be 7-4 or 8-3 with a clear shot at winning the division and hosting a playoff game. He's worth the money. I'm just worried that the 49ers are going to have to play financial gymnastics to field a competitive team next season. 

The thing with Jimmy for me right now is I can't trust him under center to maximize our offense and the weapons at his disposal. Deebo is a weapon. Aiyuk is a weapon. Kittle is a weapon. Juice is a weapon. Morstert is a weapon. Those guys deserve a QB who sees the field better and makes the necessary throws/reads so they're just as effective in their traditional roles as they are with their contributions in our gadget offensive sets.

Every throw Jimmy refuses to make deep or towards the boundary, condenses the field and shrinks the space guys like Kittle and Deebo operate best...between the hashes. His reluctance to hit those out-breaking routes and his inability to understand certain concepts verseus certain coverages will always limit him, and more importantly this offense. We are handcuffed with him@QB. And you can't be handcuffed at the most important position on the field and expect to contend with the Mahomes and Wilson's of the league, yearly.

GQ was carried last season by a incredible run game and defense. It will be extremely difficult for those two areas to replicate that kind of production with our cap situation moving forward. Things have changed. Guys like AA, Ward & Kittle got paid. Guys like T. Williams, Warner, Bosa and Mostert will be up for their slice of the pie, soon. So its not feasible to replicate the depth and talet of those areas if we're keeping Jimmy.

And if we are keeping Jimmy then his play needs to elevate to overcome the personnel losses of those areas, and subsequent drop off in play. Nothing I've seen in 2020 lends me to believe Jimmy's poised for a big 2021. That's a HUGE gamble to take. That he suddenly turns into 2017 Jimmy with better decision-making. That's like the perfect storm of good being bestowed upon this franchise and I'm too much of a pessimist to even entertain that thought.

Edited by 757-NINER
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45 minutes ago, NinerNation21 said:

You're right that Jones is a luxury, but he also wouldn't break the bank. I'd be surprised if signed a contract with an APY of above $1.5 mil.

That's barely the NFL minimum for his service time next season, so I'd imagine it has to be steeper than that, even if it doesn't fully break the bank. Danny Shelton makes like 4 million apy, so I think it will be a little bit more, but if we can keep it similar to the Shelton contract, he could certainly be back. Shelton got 2 years, 8 million, first year cap hit 2.75. I think that's reasonable, though I think ultimately we will go elsewhere, which sucks. That being said, DJ is another guy who misses time every single year, so maybe we get healthier by default LOL 

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2 hours ago, Forge said:

So apparently, Ford's contact has a partial injury guarantee next year. Oh joy. Nearly 12 million

Im glad I saw this at 9:49pm otherwise I would say it would ruin my day.

now it only ruined my night

goddamn lol

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23 hours ago, Forge said:

That's barely the NFL minimum for his service time next season, so I'd imagine it has to be steeper than that, even if it doesn't fully break the bank. Danny Shelton makes like 4 million apy, so I think it will be a little bit more, but if we can keep it similar to the Shelton contract, he could certainly be back. Shelton got 2 years, 8 million, first year cap hit 2.75. I think that's reasonable, though I think ultimately we will go elsewhere, which sucks. That being said, DJ is another guy who misses time every single year, so maybe we get healthier by default LOL 

Yeah, I think DJJ will go somewhere else like vegas or texas with no state income tax and more affordable living. We would need to pay extra for him unfortunately. Whoever signs him is going to get a helluva 1tech. oh well. Hopefully he ends up outside of the division at least.  

On 12/2/2020 at 12:36 PM, Forge said:

JV is 30 and has never played a full season, with a rather legendary injury history. I actually brought this up last year on a pod  with y2 about what a weird position he puts you in if he has a successful year. You can't really give him big money because you can't really count on him. I was just a year early on that lol. I'd love to have him back..but when he gets hurt in week three are we all going to throw our hands up and start talking about how bad our injury luck is?

Mosely being a RFA is key for me here, because I think we can keep JV and then have a cheap mosely continue to develop as a JV insurance policy. We may need him at the other spot, because sherman might go, but he might not, and maybe if he does we can add another solid veteran there. Maybe mosely is the starter on the otherside with JV and we re-sign witherspoon as the insurance policy? Or we draft someone and give them a year or two to develop. Corner is a hard position to transition to the NFL. The route tree is way bigger and the guys are way more polished with 100x the QBs throwing them the ball. So if we do draft someone I would like to have the option to sit them right away. 

Basically, pending the money obviously, bring him back with a contingency plan of a young corner understudy behind him and feel good about it. He can not be a guy like dee ford where we pay him and have no plan B behind him. I mean, how tf didnt we have a legit backup plan for dee ford???

23 hours ago, NinerNation21 said:

Honestly, it's not even about that for me. It's that his cap hit, relative to the rest of the team and the state of our cap in 2021, hurts. We're crunched for money and his contract has wiggle room since the dead cap is so small. 

We have had every opportunity to do this already (restructure to create cap space) and have passed. We restructured kwon alexander, weston richburg, and Dee ford before we restructured him. Those are three injury prone, older, highly paid players who got restructured before Jimmy did.

We are going to pay the price on this for a few years. Kwon has dead money next year, richburg will as well if he retires, and will cost us a ton of space if he doesnt. Ford has a bunch of dead money next year and who knows if he ever plays another down in the NFL. 

That should tell you all that you need to know. The writing is on the wall with him for this reason IMO. 

23 hours ago, NinerNation21 said:

I'm not ready to move on from Jimmy. I think this season was a wash for him because of injuries. Yes, he has his faults but he was a damn good QB last year and good things happen for this team when he starts.

I would love to agree with this, but unfortunately its confirmation bias. Watching the coaches film has really opened my eyes to some of his deficiencies this year. 

He isnt seeing the field. Thats the biggest thing to me. Guys are open and he is throwing the ball elsewhere without seeing them. He isnt going through his progressions and his footwork is horrible and it causes him to be absurdly inaccurate. 

This is what we saw from him week 1 when he was healthy, so the injury is not an excuse in my eyes. Even in the patriots game, his best game of the year, his footwork was sloppy at times and that made him moderately inconsistent. He wasnt injured in the first part of the seattle game and played horribly. 

Its the mental mistakes that are killing me. We play 16 games a year, there is no reason to not show up mentally as many times as he has. bad games happen, but it was a pattern with him. I didnt like the way he carried himself or the way in which he approached the mental part of football. 

I am/was a huge garoppolo fan. He is like 2 months younger than me and I am Italian. So I was/am really rooting for the guy, but when I try to look at it objectively, I see a guy who is a product of his environment rather than being someone who elevates everyone else like he did in 2017

23 hours ago, NinerNation21 said:

If he didn't get the high ankle sprain, we'd probably have 2 or 3 more wins right now and be 7-4 or 8-3 with a clear shot at winning the division and hosting a playoff game. 

I agree with this but I think this speaks to how bad Nick Mullens and CJ beathard are to some extent. 

23 hours ago, NinerNation21 said:

He's worth the money. I'm just worried that the 49ers are going to have to play financial gymnastics to field a competitive team next season. 

I am not so sure he is worth the money. The big plays he makes are due to the scheme or the playmakers, moreso than him going off script or making an incredible throw. 

That doesnt mean he hasnt done it. He has flashed for sure, there are times when he throws with amazing anticipation and timing after going through some reads. It has happened and I can understand why people think it will happen again. It hasnt happened frequently enough or consistently enough to the point I can bank on it. To me, with the cap going down, it changes the equation for the money part of it because I believe we could get moderately the same production for less money due to the coach and the playmakers we have. 

He has too many turnovers too. He doesnt make enough plus plays on his own to warrant so many turnovers/bad throws. 

I said on the podcast that I thought we might try and get him to reduce his salary. We can tell him "the cap went down, we want to keep you but you are only worth 10m to us" and hopefully he takes it. If not, then we will need to figure something out. Its very possible we look around and realize he is our best bet in 2021, but that everyone knows it might be his last year.

Garoppolo is by far our best QB and I am hoping he comes back and proves he is worth the money. To me its kinda like "oh you want to stay here and get paid 25m? well go win us some playoff games where things are less than perfect". He is either up for it or he isnt. There is no middle ground. 

I also could not agree more with@757-NINER s post, especially the last two paragraphs. Either we find a system QB for cheap, or we get a QB who elevates everyone else on the offense (or a young qb who is the former who can become the latter). The example I use a lot is russ. Seattle had the supporting cast that we do in a lot of ways (minus the skill pos on offense) and they have remained competitive while retooling the roster.

I get the uncertainty of next season portion of this, but sometimes its better to have a fresh start and some growing pains with a franchise QB than it is to be stuck in QB purgatory in perpetuity while paying 25m for it and thereby losing other key pieces

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9 hours ago, Forge said:

So apparently, Ford's contact has a partial injury guarantee next year. Oh joy. Nearly 12 million

Why on earth would you give a guy with a comprehensive injury history, a injury guarantee??? If that was a sticking point in negotiations then we should have negotiated elsewhere.

Edited by 757-NINER
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1 hour ago, Gore Whore 21 said:

Idk how it affects us as far as what we'd save or if he'd save anything, but hopefully Ford just retires at this point. 

It's the same as cutting him. You can fight for partial signing bonuses back, but almost nobody ever does that. 

That being said, if he can't pass a physical, no way he's retiring. I wouldn't give up 12 million either lol. It's the same reason I never understood why people were saying that Smith should retire the last two years. If he can't pass a physical, he's going to stay. No getting around that. He'd cost 6 million more to cut than keep on the roster. So then you'd be looking at making him a june 1 cut and spreading it out over two years. 

If he passes the physical, I still believe that the best course of action would be similar to what we did with Jet this year. Tear up the back end of his contract. He's completely out of guarantees, so his agent will tell him that we can just as easily cut him with no problem. We remove the final two years of his deal. We cut his base salary in 2021 from 15 million down to 3-5 million. Because he's still on the roster, we are only hit with the prorated portions of his bonuses and the remainder will hit in 2022 when he's actually gone, but will decrease to 9.5 rather than 14.3. This will save more money in the immediate year of 2021 where there is a bit of a crunch (We would save 10-12 million on the cap rather than the 6 million if we cut him) and we still have the opportunity for him to be a contributing player. The downside is that you have the dead money in a future year (if you cut him next year, we would obviously just take on the full brunt of it in 2021)

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I don't know where to put this depressing piece of information, so here it will be placed.

There have only been two weeks this season where Mostert, Deebo, Aiyuk, and Kittle have been on the field together. Week 5 against the Dolphins and week 6 against the Rams. That's it. To make matters worse, these 4 players have never had a healthy Jimmy G on the field with them this season. Despite Jimmy going for 268 yrs / 3 TDs / 70% completion% week 6, he still wasn't healthy. 

These injuries are so unbelievably infuriating.  

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