Why Did The Bears Draft Mitch Trubisky?

[WindyCity]

7 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Organizational stability is important and a revolving door of GMs isn't going to solve the Bears' problems.

But I'm unconvinced that the Bears should rely on Pace to provide that stability. His tenure has been mostly average. He's given the Bears 1 playoff season and had to significantly mortgage the future to do so.

He blew the biggest/most important decision by what appears to be a mixture of 

-hubris, by not involving the entire organization.

-incompetence, not going a full work up of Watson.

-poor evaluation, Mitch is clearly worse than the other 2 and his bet attributes have never shown up in the NFL.

[Heinz D.]

19 hours ago, WindyCity said:

I would have fired Spielmen as the Vikings have won nothing And QB is a big part of that.

However, the entire Vikings organization, and the bulk of the fan base are very happy Spielman was retained. Not really a debatable point, that. Any thoughts on why that is?

19 hours ago, WindyCity said:

QBs bust. GMs get fired. This is not a radical position or idea.

No, it's not. However, I'd argue the Bears are not at all in a commonplace situation. I can expound on that statement, if you'd like. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Heinz D.

[beardown3231]

30 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

However, the entire Vikings organization, and the bulk of the fan base are very happy Spielman was retained. Not really a debatable point, that. Any thoughts on why that is?

No, it's not. However, I'd argue the Bears are not at all in a commonplace situation. I can expound on that statement, if you'd like. 

Minnesota has really put together a complete team outside of QB and yet now Cousins seems to be settling in. The Bears have no depth at CB or OL. The talent at TE is non-existent. The QB situation blows. There's no question Pace has built up one of the worst rosters in football to a good group, but offensively they're STILL a mess. He has missed on a ton of early picks in particular on the offensive side (and some on trade up's) of the ball and it shows. Free agency hasn't been good to him either, in particular on offense (again). That's why the situations are different.

Edited November 16, 2019 by beardown3231

[Heinz D.]

11 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

There's no question Pace has built up one of the worst rosters in football to a good group, but offensively they're STILL a mess. 

I don't think Cody Whitehair, James Daniels, Anthony Miller, Javon Wims, and David Montgomery are bad picks at all. And I think time will be on my side on that. Bad coaching does not equate to bad talent. The Packers defenders ARE ON RECORD as saying the league had figured out Nagy's offense--after the very first game this season. 

And...if Pace has taken one of the worst rosters in football and built it into a good group, why does that mean he automatically should be fired? 

[beardown3231]

59 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

I don't think Cody Whitehair, James Daniels, Anthony Miller, Javon Wims, and David Montgomery are bad picks at all. And I think time will be on my side on that. Bad coaching does not equate to bad talent. The Packers defenders ARE ON RECORD as saying the league had figured out Nagy's offense--after the very first game this season. 

And...if Pace has taken one of the worst rosters in football and built it into a good group, why does that mean he automatically should be fired? 

You'll have to send that quote.

I said he has missed on a ton of early picks. So far Daniels and Miller aren't anything special. Trubisky and Shaheen are bad. White didn't pan out. Those are picks that have to hit and be difference makers.

I know you're really on this "Nagy sucks" train but it's not "bad coaching" that's allowing the QB to miss one open receiver every drive. That's bad quarterbacking that the GM drafted. The GM said they'd never pick that high again and they needed to hit on him. He said he had conviction. He now looks completely foolish. You cannot win in the NFL with a bad QB and you cannot scheme good or great offensive production with a bad QB. What do you want Nagy to do? And please don't say "roll him out more!" because we heard the same garbage about Cutler. Maybe they're smarter than we are and with an actual sample size we'll see what they know and it's that he sucks regardless.

It means he should be fired because "good" isn't "great" and how many more years does he need to get it to that point? As Windy said, 5 years is a long time. It's not like his focus has entirely been on defense. The QB he drafted isn't good. The TE he drafted isn't good. So far Miller and Daniels would be 4th or 5th rounders in a redraft. I'm glad he found Whitehair but honestly if that was his best offensive draft pick and that's what you want to hang your hat on, as fans we're in trouble.

Edited November 16, 2019 by beardown3231

[abstract_thought]

The window for this team is going to close quickly because Pace borrowed from the future to build the current roster. The talent level of this team is going to get worse, not better.

 

[beardown3231]

39 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

The window for this team is going to close quickly because Pace borrowed from the future to build the current roster. The talent level of this team is going to get worse, not better.

 

He either mortgaged all of that because he knew Trubisky stunk & needed Mack, or he mortgaged all of that because he thought Trubisky was good & Mack was the guy to get them over the top. Either way Trubisky was going to be the common denominator and unfortunately he regressed tremendously.

[WindyCity]

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I don't think Cody Whitehair, James Daniels, Anthony Miller, Javon Wims, and David Montgomery are bad picks at all. And I think time will be on my side on that. Bad coaching does not equate to bad talent. The Packers defenders ARE ON RECORD as saying the league had figured out Nagy's offense--after the very first game this season. 

And...if Pace has taken one of the worst rosters in football and built it into a good group, why does that mean he automatically should be fired? 

Because he detonated his own window of competing with either,

1. A terrible QB choice (correct answer)

2 A terrible coaching hire

 

He blew one of the 2 biggest decisions he has and may have blown both.

[WindyCity]

32 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

He either mortgaged all of that because he knew Trubisky stunk & needed Mack, or he mortgaged all of that because he thought Trubisky was good & Mack was the guy to get them over the top. Either way Trubisky was going to be the common denominator and unfortunately he regressed tremendously.

Boom. 

I believe he traded for Mack because he thought Mitch was going to good and this was the all in move.

Which means he mis evaluates Mitch twice.

 

#firepace

[Heinz D.]

2 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

I said he has missed on a ton of early picks. So far Daniels and Miller aren't anything special. Trubisky and Shaheen are bad. White didn't pan out. Those are picks that have to hit and be difference makers.

I know you're really on this "Nagy sucks" train but it's not "bad coaching" that's allowing the QB to miss one open receiver every drive. That's bad quarterbacking that the GM drafted. The GM said they'd never pick that high again and they needed to hit on him. He said he had conviction. He now looks completely foolish. You cannot win in the NFL with a bad QB and you cannot scheme good or great offensive production with a bad QB. What do you want Nagy to do? And please don't say "roll him out more!" because we heard the same garbage about Cutler. Maybe they're smarter than we are and with an actual sample size we'll see what they know and it's that he sucks regardless.

It means he should be fired because "good" isn't "great" and how many more years does he need to get it to that point? As Windy said, 5 years is a long time. It's not like his focus has entirely been on defense. The QB he drafted isn't good. The TE he drafted isn't good. So far Miller and Daniels would be 4th or 5th rounders in a redraft. I'm glad he found Whitehair but honestly if that was his best offensive draft pick and that's what you want to hang your hat on, as fans we're in trouble.

I think anyone who follows football would agree that Nagy has put out a flawed offense, then proceeded to not properly adjust it, or properly utilize his personnel. I mean...that's everywhere dude. All over television. All over the internet. You can pretend it isn't there, but that would be just that. Pretending. 

I'm not even necessarily advocating that he be fired, though. Just trying to look at things in a kind of rational manner which, without any malicious slights to anyone here, seems to be lacking in the observations and rhetoric currently on display in the forum. 

As to what I want Nagy to do--he's come halfway, on occasion. And that is, to succeed with the talent he's given. That's what good coaches do, and that doesn't even have to mean wins. 

As to Pace--are you sure he's a bad GM, and the Bears will easily hire a better one? Seriously, think on that. I can see Pace being fired and the next guy jackrabbiting and trading for Cam Newton or Andy Dalton. Does that benefit the team? Or does that send it to another rebuild three years from now? 

 

32 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Because he detonated his own window of competing with either,

1. A terrible QB choice (correct answer)

2 A terrible coaching hire

 

He blew one of the 2 biggest decisions he has and may have blown both.

Yeah, he may well have. To not recognize both decisions could be flawed is not seeing the big picture. 

[WindyCity]

1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

I think anyone who follows football would agree that Nagy has put out a flawed offense, then proceeded to not properly adjust it, or properly utilize his personnel. I mean...that's everywhere dude. All over television. All over the internet. You can pretend it isn't there, but that would be just that. Pretending. 

I'm not even necessarily advocating that he be fired, though. Just trying to look at things in a kind of rational manner which, without any malicious slights to anyone here, seems to be lacking in the observations and rhetoric currently on display in the forum. 

As to what I want Nagy to do--he's come halfway, on occasion. And that is, to succeed with the talent he's given. That's what good coaches do, and that doesn't even have to mean wins. 

As to Pace--are you sure he's a bad GM, and the Bears will easily hire a better one? Seriously, think on that. I can see Pace being fired and the next guy jackrabbiting and trading for Cam Newton or Andy Dalton. Does that benefit the team? Or does that send it to another rebuild three years from now? 

 

Yeah, he may well have. To not recognize both decisions could be flawed is not seeing the big picture. 

100% I haven’t been impressed with Nagy this season at all.

I think Nagy is being dragged down more by Mitch, but dude took forever to adapt.

As I said, Pace’s 2 biggest decisions do not look good right now,  but hey he is great at drafting in the 4th and 5th rounds.

[Heinz D.]

10 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

As I said, Pace’s 2 biggest decisions do not look good right now,  but hey he is great at drafting in the 4th and 5th rounds.

And let's face it...there's something to be said for that. 

I realize that I may be emitting what amounts to be mixed signals at the moment, but my overall point is, essentially, the season isn't over yet. I'm not expecting a miraculous turnaround, but a better take on all these issues, including Trubisky. 

[beardown3231]

15 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I think anyone who follows football would agree that Nagy has put out a flawed offense, then proceeded to not properly adjust it, or properly utilize his personnel. I mean...that's everywhere dude. All over television. All over the internet. You can pretend it isn't there, but that would be just that. Pretending. 

All over television and the internet from who though? Who said that? Us on a message board? Some dopes who "rate players" from PFF? People wanted him to adjust but maybe there wasn't adjusting to do? "RUN DA BALL U IDIOT!!!1" Maybe teams were stacking 8-9 guys in the box because the quarterback is a pumpkin? And if you remember correctly, he did adjust against LAC and the QB still sucked. He was given a car with a bad motor. Not one in need of an oil change or one that needed new tires, but one that's incapable of being run. If that happened to you, what would you do? I'd assume you'd ride it out and hope for a new motor asap.

I'm not even necessarily advocating that he be fired, though. Just trying to look at things in a kind of rational manner which, without any malicious slights to anyone here, seems to be lacking in the observations and rhetoric currently on display in the forum. 

Who is being malicious? It's as simple as- Nagy got an almost identical roster to the playoffs last year and easily won the division. With, again, almost the same roster, they are 3.5 games behind the division lead. The common denominator is the QB has been horrible, the QB that the GM had conviction on and evidently ignored his coaches and scours on. It's really incorrect to blame Nagy because "well Trubisky should've gotten more preseason snaps!" Come on. Now you're complaining just to complain. You're telling me that 10 snaps each preseason game would mean an improved QB? That sounds ridiculous.

As to what I want Nagy to do--he's come halfway, on occasion. And that is, to succeed with the talent he's given. That's what good coaches do, and that doesn't even have to mean wins. 

See above analogy about the car. The most important position on the team, in football, perhaps in all of sports is horrendous. He's arguably the worst starter in the sport. Who is a coach right now who's consistently winning despite a horrible QB?

As to Pace--are you sure he's a bad GM, and the Bears will easily hire a better one? Seriously, think on that. I can see Pace being fired and the next guy jackrabbiting and trading for Cam Newton or Andy Dalton. Does that benefit the team? Or does that send it to another rebuild three years from now? 

No one said he's a bad GM, at least I didn't. Sometimes it's time to move on. Was Angelo a bad GM? No, but at some point it's time to find another leader/voice/decision maker. I said he's had 5 years to turn this around and there's been one good year, that's it. One. There should've been a nice string of seasons but the QB has gotten worse, one that only he inside of the organization wanted. You can talk up his good Jackson, Cohen and Amos picks all you want but I'm more concerned about the more important ones- White, Floyd, Shaheen, Daniels, Miller, Trubisky. 

If you think Nagy is a bust of a coach, then who hired him? So that GM not only hired a bad coach but also used high picks on Trubisky & Shaheen & big money on Sims and Glennon + wanted Mariota? He should stick around?

And yes, I think Dalton would be a decent pick up for a low draft pick. He's about the 20th best QB in football who can easily score 20-25 ppg.

 

Yeah, he may well have. To not recognize both decisions could be flawed is not seeing the big picture. 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by beardown3231

[Heinz D.]

A lot to unpack there, @beardown3231. And the format of your response makes it difficult to quote you for specifics. So I'll just hit a few points and move on.

--There is criticism, some of it extremely harsh, of Nagy all over the place. It's not just here, or from bozos at PFF. If you choose to ignore that, then that's on you. However, I never claimed Nagy is a "bust of a coach". I actually said:

18 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I'm not even necessarily advocating that he be fired, though

I'm not claiming Nagy is ruining Trubisky, either. Just not helping enough. And your claim of teams stacking 8-9 guys in the box "because the quarterback is a pumpkin", simply isn't true.That wasn't really happening, isn't really now. 

--I wasn't claiming anyone was being malicious. I was pointing out that although the wording of some of my counter-arguments could read as overly harsh, I wasn't being malicious. Nothing I was saying was mean-spirited. Nothing I will likely say in the future on these subjects will be, either. 

--Actually, IMO, Angelo was a bad GM. He didn't move the organization forward in any significant way, and made tons and tons of errors before he was let go. I think Pace is most likely a better GM than Angelo, and some of his misses were either explainable, or not the blatant busts you claim they are. We'll have to agree to disagree about those, I guess. 

--Dalton doesn't horrify me as a pickup to the same degree Newton does. I just don't think he's all that great. Also, having one of those guys as the solution would be, I feel, a mistake. If they can get Dalton on the cheap, without expending draft capital, then I suppose that's fine. I think the Bears would be best served pinning their hopes on a rookie, or maybe a couple of them.

My overall take on things is that we have seven games left to see how things go down. My hope is that after those games are done, we see Trubisky still has potential to be great, and the team is firing on all cylinders again. My suspicion is that after after those games are over, Trubisky will clearly stand as the big weakness on the team, and we'll all be happy moving forward without him. I'm guessing that I'll also be fine with a Bears team with Pace and Nagy minus Trubisky arrangement, as will many others. 
 

We'll see what happens. 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Heinz D.

[beardown3231]

13 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

A lot to unpack there, @beardown3231. And the format of your response makes it difficult to quote you for specifics. So I'll just hit a few points and move on.

--There is criticism, some of it extremely harsh, of Nagy all over the place. It's not just here, or from bozos at PFF. If you choose to ignore that, then that's on you. However, I never claimed Nagy is a "bust of a coach". I actually said:

I'm not claiming Nagy is ruining Trubisky, either. Just not helping enough. And your claim of teams stacking 8-9 guys in the box "because the quarterback is a pumpkin", simply isn't true.That wasn't really happening, isn't really now. 

--I wasn't claiming anyone was being malicious. I was pointing out that although the wording of some of my counter-arguments could read as overly harsh, I wasn't being malicious. Nothing I was saying was mean-spirited. Nothing I will likely say in the future on these subjects will be, either. 

--Actually, IMO, Angelo was a bad GM. He didn't move the organization forward in any significant way, and made tons and tons of errors before he was let go. I think Pace is most likely a better GM than Angelo, and some of his misses were either explainable, or not the blatant busts you claim they are. We'll have to agree to disagree about those, I guess. 

--Dalton doesn't horrify me as a pickup to the same degree Newton does. I just don't think he's all that great. Also, having one of those guys as the solution would be, I feel, a mistake. If they can get Dalton on the cheap, without expending draft capital, then I suppose that's fine. I think the Bears would be best served pinning their hopes on a rookie, or maybe a couple of them.

My overall take on things is that we have seven games left to see how things go down. My hope is that after those games are done, we see Trubisky still has potential to be great, and the team is firing on all cylinders again. My suspicion is that after after those games are over, Trubisky will clearly stand as the big weakness on the team, and we'll all be happy moving forward without him. I'm guessing that I'll also be fine with a Bears team with Pace and Nagy minus Trubisky arrangement, as will many others. 
 

We'll see what happens. 

 

My bad on the "malicious" comment confusion.

I do like your arguments and it's nice to have back and forth without getting ignorant. Hats off to you.

I hope we are both wrong and #10 and Nagy bring us a championship.