warfelg Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is clearly sarcasm, right? Sadly I doubt it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 minute ago, warfelg said: Sadly I doubt it. Really? Ooof... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 15 hours ago, Webmaster said: How about we all just be civil to one another and discuss the topic. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ragnarok said: I disagree strongly with this. This was not just a reaction. That's because you aren't thinking about it from a biological point of view. As I noted, its not an excuse like you'd use in a court of law ie "temporary insanity" and I never suggested that was the case. But at no point in time did any of these combatants "stop to think" or do any "choosing" or "contemplating" Suggesting otherwise isn't consistent with how human brains and anatomy work. Once the fight/flight system is activated, it actually shunts energy away from the higher thinking areas of the brain because they aren't needed in a fight/flight situation. Those higher function areas are the parts of the brain we use to "think" "choose" "contemplate" and weigh our actions vs future consequences. And once the fight/flight system is activated, it takes 20-60 minutes for the body/brain to return to normal, which consists of both Level I and Level II thinking. That's why we'll often see a non-combatant try to pull the combatant away; one has higher level thinking engaged, the other does not You and warfelg are both mistaken here. If you genuinely want to learn more, happy to assist and the Navy Seals have done some remarkable work on this The ironic thing is that none of us would exist today were it not for this incredible system refined over millions of years of evolution - - to preserve our species. Yet here you are arguing against its existence and saying " I don't buy it" You already bought it, the day you were born. Edited November 15, 2019 by Shanedorf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 24 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is clearly sarcasm, right? If his history on this forum is any indication, then I'm pretty sure he's completely serious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarok Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Shanedorf said: That's because you aren't thinking about it from a biological point of view. As I noted, its not an excuse like you'd use in a court of law ie "temporary insanity" and I never suggested that was the case. But at no point in time did any of these combatants "stop to think" or do any "choosing" or "contemplating" Suggesting otherwise isn't consistent with how human brains and anatomy work. Once the fight/flight system is activated, it actually shunts energy away from the higher thinking areas of the brain because they aren't needed in a fight/flight situation. Those higher function areas are the parts of the brain we use to "think" "choose" "contemplate" and weigh our actions vs future consequences. And once the fight/flight system is activated, it takes 20-60 minutes for the body/brain to return to normal, which consists of both Level I and Level II thinking. That's why we'll often see a non-combatant try to pull the combatant away; one has higher level thinking engaged, the other does not You and warfelg are both mistaken here. If you genuinely want to learn more, happy to assist and the Navy Seals have done some remarkable work on this The ironic thing is that none of us would exist today were it not for this incredible system refined over millions of years of evolution - - to preserve our species. Yet here you are arguing against its existence and saying " I don't buy it" You already bought it, the day you were born. I'm approaching it from personal experience. I have worked as a bouncer before and have been in some situations where I had to defend myself. Including a couple of times where individuals who had to be removed from a bar were waiting outside afterwards. Even in those situations, there's a point where you make the choice to continue or escalate. Suggesting otherwise removes culpability which is what I don't buy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NudeTayne Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Shanedorf said: That's because you aren't thinking about it from a biological point of view. As I noted, its not an excuse like you'd use in a court of law ie "temporary insanity" and I never suggested that was the case. But at no point in time did any of these combatants "stop to think" or do any "choosing" or "contemplating" Suggesting otherwise isn't consistent with how human brains and anatomy work. Once the fight/flight system is activated, it actually shunts energy away from the higher thinking areas of the brain because they aren't needed in a fight/flight situation. Those higher function areas are the parts of the brain we use to "think" "choose" "contemplate" and weigh our actions vs future consequences. And once the fight/flight system is activated, it takes 20-60 minutes for the body/brain to return to normal, which consists of both Level I and Level II thinking. That's why we'll often see a non-combatant try to pull the combatant away; one has higher level thinking engaged, the other does not You and warfelg are both mistaken here. If you genuinely want to learn more, happy to assist and the Navy Seals have done some remarkable work on this The ironic thing is that none of us would exist today were it not for this incredible system refined over millions of years of evolution - - to preserve our species. Yet here you are arguing against its existence and saying " I don't buy it" You already bought it, the day you were born. 19 minutes ago, Ragnarok said: I'm approaching it from personal experience. I have worked as a bouncer before and have been in some situations where I had to defend myself. Including a couple of times where individuals who had to be removed from a bar were waiting outside afterwards. Even in those situations, there's a point where you make the choice to continue or escalate. Suggesting otherwise removes culpability which is what I don't buy. Just want to point out to you two that this perspective of binary opposites right now is a pleasure to read. You both make good points and have a lot of Truth to what you say. It seems to be a discussion about perhaps where the fight-or-flight completely takes over, where if one maintains self-awareness and relaxed breathing one might be able to stay conscious longer etc. This is a very interesting discussion to stumble across here. Edited November 15, 2019 by NudeTayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, Ragnarok said: Even in those situations, there's a point where you make the choice to continue or escalate bouncers in control of a situation aren't in fight or flight mode. The very act of "deciding" or "choosing" tells us as much. That's the difference. Sometimes bouncers are, but what you described is not Being in fight/ flight mode doesn't remove culpability, it merely offers us insight on why they did what they did. I've been consistent on that point but you guys keep bringing that up anyways...I'm not justifying or rationalizing anything NudeTayne- look up some of the Navy Seals training they do to overcome the fight/flight response under water. The pass rate is abysmal, but there are humans who can be trained to overcome it. They are a very special and unique bunch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterfish_21 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Shanedorf said: NudeTayne- look up some of the Navy Seals training they do to overcome the fight/flight response under water. The pass rate is abysmal, but there are humans who can be trained to overcome it. They are a very special and unique bunch Do they put them in tanks filled with sharks with lasers on their heads? If so i'm out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarok Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Just now, Shanedorf said: bouncers in control of a situation aren't in fight or flight mode. The very act of "deciding" or "choosing" tells us as much. That's the difference. Sometimes bouncers are, but what you described is not Being in fight/ flight mode doesn't remove culpability, it merely offers us insight on why they did what they did. I've been consistent on that point but you guys keep bringing that up anyways...I'm not justifying or rationalizing anything NudeTayne- look up some of the Navy Seals training they do to overcome the fight/flight response under water. The pass rate is abysmal, but there are humans who can be trained to overcome it. They are a very special and unique bunch I guess I would put Garrett's situation much closer to mine than anything a Navy Seal is doing. What I don't buy is that Garrett reached fight or flight levels. If anything, getting jumped by two drunk guys in a parking lot is a lot scarier than anything that happens on a football field. If we were discussing a wartime behavior or incident with a risk of death, then yes, you have a point. Not in this situation. Garrett went back and sat on the bench for a while quietly. If it took 20-60 minutes as you said, wouldn't he still have been in fight or flight at that point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) S Jackson. Two kids fight. The loser lost to the kid that started the fight. So he took a bat to his head. The kid deserved it. GMAFB! Edited November 16, 2019 by m haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Ragnarok said: What I don't buy is that Garrett reached fight or flight levels. I can appreciate that. It might be because you don't have a medical background - and it doesn't fit with your previously posted beliefs I'm asking you to change your mind on something you feel very strongly about. When a male gets kicked in the nuts, it releases a cascade of neurotransmitters that will immediately activate the system. That's why you fall to the ground and are temporarily paralyzed after taking one to the gonads. So even if all of the previous battling didn't get him there, the nut shot would. And its instantaneous 38 minutes ago, Ragnarok said: Garrett went back and sat on the bench for a while quietly. If it took 20-60 minutes as you said, wouldn't he still have been in fight or flight at that point? Yes he would from a biological POV. If you measured his pulse rate, blood pressure, pupil dilation and a host of other biomarkers - they would all still be quite elevated. But the imminent threat has been removed at that point and "normal" is in the process of being restored. What they do with the Seals is they put them under water, rip off the breathing mask from their oxygen tank and tie the tube in a knot Meanwhile they are being choked from behind by an instructor. Then the Seal has to fight off the attacker, untie the knot in the oxygen tank tube and put mouthpiece back together in time to save his life and continue the mission. Taking away the ability to breathe instantly activates the fight/flight system, clouds their higher thinking and makes it nearly impossible to solve the problem. But after intense training, the ones who pass are able to overcome the panic factor. Its really quite remarkable and few can pull it off, especially on the 1st try Edited November 16, 2019 by Shanedorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 40 minutes ago, warfelg said: Rational thought prevails. That would be an extremely bad look and bulletin board material for defenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 42 minutes ago, warfelg said: It would have been at most a misdemeanor and the Cleveland police would have laughed him out of the stations.. He would literally have to have gone himself to the Cleveland PD and file a report. A Cleveland sports writer stopped at the station and asked questions about it today and talked about it on the radio today during his segment appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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