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Is a QB "elevating talent" a myth?


Elky

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We hear it all the time: a true elite, franchise quarterback "elevates the talent around him". These type of quarterbacks makes "everyone around him better". However, does this actually happen? Granted having a prime Peyton Manning/Tom Brady under center will certainly give you a better chance to win, but does having a "franchise quarterback" really make everyone else "better"?

We've seen Brady struggle carrying less than stellar offenses in 2006, 2013 and this season. Peyton's stats took a noticeable dip in 2010.

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9 minutes ago, Elky said:

We hear it all the time: a true elite, franchise quarterback "elevates the talent around him". These type of quarterbacks makes "everyone around him better". However, does this actually happen? Granted having a prime Peyton Manning/Tom Brady under center will certainly give you a better chance to win, but does having a "franchise quarterback" really make everyone else "better"?

We've seen Brady struggle carrying less than stellar offenses in 2006, 2013 and this season. Peyton's stats took a noticeable dip in 2010.

I think QBs can elevate their WRs and help their OLs. Romo for years made no-name WRs look good in spurts. Im sure every great QB has done that with someone. 

As for the OL, good pocket awareness, ability to read a defense and a quick release greatly helps in pass protection. 

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5 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I think QBs can elevate their WRs and help their OLs. Romo for years made no-name WRs look good in spurts. Im sure every great QB has done that with someone. 

As for the OL, good pocket awareness, ability to read a defense and a quick release greatly helps in pass protection. 

A QB's skill definitely helps in that regard, but I think the big pitfall people fall into is "oh this guy's elite at pocket awareness, so we can go cheap on the o-line". There just comes a breaking point where QB can't overcome something crucial as at least decent blocking or a receiver that doesn't have stone hands.

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Absolutely 100% not a myth. The truly elite ones always elevate talent. Or they are just so good, they don’t need much talent around them might be a better way to look at it. 

- Russell Wilson right now, prime example. His awareness in the pocket and his mobility. 

- Tom Bradys intelligence, quick release, and dead on money accuracy. 

Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning. They all don’t need much talent to be successful. 

Whether it be just how good they are (Rodgers, etc) or specific skillsets (Romo with that ridiculous release).

Some will always need talent. Carr and Rivers for example. Carr is a Top 10 QB with elite protection. Bottom 7-8 without elite protection. Just his style of play. 

Rivers is a Top 5-8 QB with a solid offensive cast. He’s looked quite bad without talented offenses. 

Edited by BayRaider
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12 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

It's not a myth, QBs can elevate an entire team the same way they can drown one. They just can't work miracles, like suddenly make Nelson Agholor capable of catching a football.

This.... a great QB can lead the horses to water but he can’t make them drink.

A bad QB can tie the horses together and drown them all.

Edited by Dome
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It can but it's more than just 'Good to Great QB fixes everything'.  Some things you have to account for:

  • Great pocket passers can cut up a defense if given time -> Brady + Dante Scarnecchia
  • Combine OCs/Play calling with strengths of a QB, and watch out -> LJax + Roman, Mahomes + Reid, Kyler + Kliff, Shanny + Jimmy G
  • Defenses adjust so if you stay stagnant on offense year to year, effectiveness will go down
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They don’t make players better, they just allow the players around them to show 100% what they’re capable of. Tom Brady doesn’t make Julian Edelman a better route runner (maybe a more precise one, through practice?) and Drew Brees doesn’t make Michael Thomas better at catching the ball. Right now, those players have that ability themselves - it doesn’t only exist when being thrown to by their quarterbacks. The receivers don’t suddenly become worse by having someone else throwing them the ball.

But now seeing the most open receiver, progressing through reads, ball placement, timing - these things that the elite QBs have/do, they let the receivers have the best chance at making a play on the ball. 

And that works in many positional relationship. AJ Green probably made Dalton look a lot better than he would have if Green was never a Bengal. The Broncos 2015 secondary probably looks a lot worse if they were terrible at getting to the quarterback. The Cowboys offensive line of a few seasons ago probably wouldn’t have it’s reputation if the QB ran into sacks and the running back had no vision. 

Edited by Yin-Yang
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1 hour ago, Elky said:

We hear it all the time: a true elite, franchise quarterback "elevates the talent around him". These type of quarterbacks makes "everyone around him better". However, does this actually happen? Granted having a prime Peyton Manning/Tom Brady under center will certainly give you a better chance to win, but does having a "franchise quarterback" really make everyone else "better"?

We've seen Brady struggle carrying less than stellar offenses in 2006, 2013 and this season. Peyton's stats took a noticeable dip in 2010.

I find it frankly bizarre that a NE fan would make this thread. The Patriots have had a top 10 offense every year of Brady's 20 year career, how often have they had an elite running game? Once. An elite no. 1 WR? Maybe 3 years, at most. Gronk is by far the best player (outside Brady) they had, he played 6 years. Would you ever say the Pats had the best OL in the league in that time? No. Rarely even a top 5 player at any of the 5 positions. Mostly good OLs, but never elite.

2013 Patriots had a top 3 scoring offense, with injuries every where. In 2006 the Patriots had a top 7 scoring offense with Reche frickin' Caldwell as their number 1 receiver. As hard as the offense was to watch yesterday, this year they've started 9 different OL players, and 17 different pass catchers. They're still top 5 in scoring.

The Pats offense is evidence that average, competent players can be turned into a top offensive unit, provided they have a QB who is smart enough to read the defense, and accurate enough to make up for their athletic deficiencies of his players.

Yes, the Pats offense is bland right now. They are having struggles, and it's hard to watch that when you see teams like Houston, Dallas and the Chiefs flinging the ball all over the field, but that's not Brady's fault. That's just the injuries on the OL and the very thin WR/TE corps.

TL;DR Fantasy football has ruined people's appreciation of situational football, and spoiled Pats fans being spoiled.

 

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7 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

I find it frankly bizarre that a NE fan would make this thread. The Patriots have had a top 10 offense every year of Brady's 20 year career, how often have they had an elite running game? Once. An elite no. 1 WR? Maybe 3 years, at most. Gronk is by far the best player (outside Brady) they had, he played 6 years. Would you ever say the Pats had the best OL in the league in that time? No. Rarely even a top 5 player at any of the 5 positions. Mostly good OLs, but never elite.

2013 Patriots had a top 3 scoring offense, with injuries every where. In 2006 the Patriots had a top 7 scoring offense with Reche frickin' Caldwell as their number 1 receiver. As hard as the offense was to watch yesterday, this year they've started 9 different OL players, and 17 different pass catchers. They're still top 5 in scoring.

The Pats offense is evidence that average, competent players can be turned into a top offensive unit, provided they have a QB who is smart enough to read the defense, and accurate enough to make up for their athletic deficiencies of his players.

Yes, the Pats offense is bland right now. They are having struggles, and it's hard to watch that when you see teams like Houston, Dallas and the Chiefs flinging the ball all over the field, but that's not Brady's fault. That's just the injuries on the OL and the very thin WR/TE corps.

TL;DR Fantasy football has ruined people's appreciation of situational football, and spoiled Pats fans being spoiled.

 

Very spoiled. Pat fans in their 20’s and early 30’s don’t even know what it’s like to be a fan of a bad or normal team. Brady is carrying that putrid offense extremely well. I think this has been by far one of Bradys most impressive seasons because of it. 

Like 27 other QBs on that team would look abysmal. 

Edited by BayRaider
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OL for sure. The Brady Pats and Manning Colts always seem to have good OLs, despite revolving door of players. You can chalk that up to blocking for QBs w/ elite pocket presence and quick decision making.

Great QBs definitely can make WRs look better (certainly allow them to produce more), but so can just a well run offense that is firing, or even an average QB who loves targeting them/has great chemistry w/ that WR.

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Somewhat mythical, depending on what you’re expecting out of them.  A lot of the trash that looks good with elite QBs isn’t really trash.  At least not to the extent people make it out to be.  But a QB throwing accurate passes and making good, quick decisions helps the entire team, while the opposite hurts it.

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4 hours ago, Elky said:

We hear it all the time: a true elite, franchise quarterback "elevates the talent around him". These type of quarterbacks makes "everyone around him better". However, does this actually happen? Granted having a prime Peyton Manning/Tom Brady under center will certainly give you a better chance to win, but does having a "franchise quarterback" really make everyone else "better"?

We've seen Brady struggle carrying less than stellar offenses in 2006, 2013 and this season. Peyton's stats took a noticeable dip in 2010.

I saw it happen in Minnesota in 2009 when Brett Favre came to town.  We had Sidney Rice in his second year in the league and a rookie Percy Harvin.  IMO, Favre was instrumental in helping both of them become very good very quickly.  They both could have developed eventually without Favre, but I think he sped up the process considerably.

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