GDT Week 12: Broncos@Bills

[AKRNA]

1 hour ago, 1234567 said:

Anytime you are devoid of talent across the board, you’re gonna have games like this. It also appears that the hurry up offense is this defense’s Achilles. And that’s understandable considering this team’s lack of depth. 

Used to watch the Bills just abuse people with the no huddle. Unless you've got a core group of 7+, 3 down defenders, it's almost impossible to defend. We just don't have those guys.

The Bills are a legit contender. Thats really a talent heavy "D" with an offense starting to hit it's stride. Looking forward to their Dec 21st matchup with the Pats.

[Broncofan]

Let's face it, there's not much new that need be said.

Our best guys are our young guys.   Our D is miles ahead of our O.    Our QB is a total stopgap.   We need upgrades at T / IOL, WR2, ILB and just more depth all around.    

The only blessing is that any talk about Brandon Allen deserving to play out the rest of the season to see what he has should stop now.   Nothing against him, he did what he could - but the talent gap with him, and the rest of our O, was on full display today.    Once teams see what he does, they can plan and negate it quite easily...which is what we saw.

I have no qualms with our D - we ran 46 plays on O.   Our D had us down 6-0 in the 2H - and our O responded by going 3-and-out 6 times.   SIX.     That's ridiculous.   

Either way, whether it's home to LAC, or later, it seems inevitable that we'll get to see Lock.   Frankly, even if he struggles, that's OK - because it really can't be more dismal than it was today.  

Edited November 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Where does "defense lacks heart" even come from? Because they gave up some plays, they don't "want it"? These sort of arguments are best served steaming hot on local radio or TV "debate" shows on Monday mornings. 

I know the Fangio apologists don’t like to admit it, but this appears to be a lost locker room. Saying as such is not a “hot take” or something similar. 

Now the offense is far more of a problem than the defense and there is an overall lack of talent. 

But to act as though this looks like a team that has fully bought in, is going to weather the storm and is playing with a ton of heart is ignoring reality. 

[1234567]

29 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I know the Fangio apologists don’t like to admit it, but this appears to be a lost locker room. Saying as such is not a “hot take” or something similar. 

Now the offense is far more of a problem than the defense and there is an overall lack of talent. 

But to act as though this looks like a team that has fully bought in, is going to weather the storm and is playing with a ton of heart is ignoring reality. 

I get your perspective, but keep in mind Kyle Shanahan went 6-10 and 4-12 his first two seasons in San Fran. And for the same reasons; he inherited a team that had no talent. It takes time. And again I would argue this: Denver is one of the least overall talented teams in the league right now. Yet despite this, we’ve been in a position to win a lot of games this year that we shouldn’t have. Hell, even today. At one point in the 3rd quarter this was still a 6-0 ballgame. Against a legit contender. Aside from CHJ, have you ever even heard of any of our other starting corners? Until this season, I hadn’t. We have some guy they found in the parking lot playing qb, the worst o-line maybe in Broncos history, a ILB core that has been horrible for years, one legit WR, a rookie o-coord, an offense that can’t stay on the field and a rookie head coach. And yet in spite of all this, we still have a top 10 defense and have been in a lot of tight games against far superior competition. To me, I see a head coach who is getting the most out of the talent he has, which thanks to Elway and Ellis, isn’t much. 

[Broncofan]

 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, 1234567 said:

To me, I see a head coach who is getting the most out of the talent he has, which thanks to Elway and Ellis, isn’t much. 

Honestly, as much as I have been banging the drum about how talent-poor we are, and how we've been needing to embrace a full rebuild since the 2017-18 offseason - I don't get how ppl don't see this point above all.  

We have a bottom 5 roster talent-wise on O.   It's not even close.   We literally have a young emerging WR, a young RB tandem, and an all-world rookie OG.   That's it.  We'll get Janovich and James back, and that will help, but that's ridiculous.  On D, we've got zero depth behind our pass rushers and starting front 7.   Alexander Johnson is a pleasant surprise, but he's a complementary piece, not an alpha Mike that we need in Fangio's scheme.    And yes, the CB's have promise - but they're learning on the job.

By DVOA, we're a top 6-8 run D unit, and that's after being bottom 5 before Johnson/Purcell joined our starters and Jackson moved full-time to S.    We are middle-of-pack in pass D, which is a pretty sound testament given we are literally playing rookies & UDFA's this year at 2 spots.     We were a top 10 run O before this week, but that likely will change (but stil in the top half) - we're just an abysmal passing O.  And that's not changing until we get more talent across the board on the OL and skill positions - and of course, QB, most of all.

So....we look at that, and say Fangio is the problem?   Come on, that's just plain ridiculous.   Again, Fangio might fail spectacularly - but our record this year isn't a reflection on him - it's a reflection of the p***-poor job Elway's done in team-building us - we're paying the butcher's bill for the failed 2013-7 drafts in a huge way.    The blame belongs with Elway/Ellis and the scouting department - we can get the pitchforks out for Fangio & co. next season, if there's no clear progress.   But this season falls squarely on Elway & Ellis, and Matt Russell & co.  They own this all the way.

[lomaxgrUK]

Basically agree with everything @Broncofan is saying. Frankly, I would much prefer it if the problem was effort because at least then a new Coach might be able to turn things around.

This game, as others have eluded to, was once again just a pure reflection of a team devoid of talent. I thought the guys played really hard. Our Defense had to play against no huddle with an Offense that had six 3 and out's; do you know how hard that is? Especially with the injuries we have on that side of the ball (Shelby Harris went down in the 1st half as well).

What is the actual point of talking specifics about this team when you have an Offense that threw for 80 yards? It's absolutely pointless. And, to top it off, Courtland Sutton got hurt in the 1st quarter as well.

Besides his mind boggling game management at times (he took a timeout on 3rd and 18 rather than just accepting delay of game yesterday), my one beef with Fangio is him finding reasons to not put Lock in. How about you find reasons TO put him in?

I hate it when people say, "you could mess him up by throwing him in - look what happened to David Carr". Maybe David Carr just wasn't good enough? EVERY QB is going to be in the fire at some point. Let's find out if the guy has the mental strength to deal with it, because Brandon Allen doesn't have the base level talent required to play in any form of adverse conditions.

If Drew Lock is any less ready than Brandon Allen, who was signed in September then that is a shockingly bad indictment on Lock and/or this Coaching staff.

Put the kid in. Now.

 

[broncofan48]

3 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Basically agree with everything @Broncofan is saying. Frankly, I would much prefer it if the problem was effort because at least then a new Coach might be able to turn things around.

This game, as others have eluded to, was once again just a pure reflection of a team devoid of talent. I thought the guys played really hard. Our Defense had to play against no huddle with an Offense that had six 3 and out's; do you know how hard that is? Especially with the injuries we have on that side of the ball (Shelby Harris went down in the 1st half as well).

What is the actual point of talking specifics about this team when you have an Offense that threw for 80 yards? It's absolutely pointless. And, to top it off, Courtland Sutton got hurt in the 1st quarter as well.

Besides his mind boggling game management at times (he took a timeout on 3rd and 18 rather than just accepting delay of game yesterday), my one beef with Fangio is him finding reasons to not put Lock in. How about you find reasons TO put him in?

I hate it when people say, "you could mess him up by throwing him in - look what happened to David Carr". Maybe David Carr just wasn't good enough? EVERY QB is going to be in the fire at some point. Let's find out if the guy has the mental strength to deal with it, because Brandon Allen doesn't have the base level talent required to play in any form of adverse conditions.

If Drew Lock is any less ready than Brandon Allen, who was signed in September then that is a shockingly bad indictment on Lock and/or this Coaching staff.

Put the kid in. Now.

 

Lock needs to play agreed but if anyone is keeping him benched Imo it’s coming from higher than Fangio

[broncos67]

56 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

Lock needs to play agreed but if anyone is keeping him benched Imo it’s coming from higher than Fangio

1000% this. Fangio is the messenger. I'm somewhat confident this is coming from Elway/Ellis because of the delusions of grandeur they may have had that this team turned a corner or something because of a few wins. The reality is, at this point, we are not making the playoffs. Brandon Allen is not starting caliber, and you drafted a guy early in hopes he may be the next franchise guy. At this point, throw him out there, let him get his feet wet, contribute, and build a rapport with the other young players. Denver is just screwing around out of some weird stubbornness to play young QBs (a garbage mindset, especially given Lock does not a have 5th year option).

[BroncosFan2010]

Lock isn't playing because the front office knows he isn't good and doesn't want to admit a sunk cost. That's what I truly believe is going on.

Every other team is throwing their QB's into the fire. Lock is an exception to this trend and its very troubling.

[germ-x]

1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Lock isn't playing because the front office knows he isn't good and doesn't want to admit a sunk cost. That's what I truly believe is going on.

Every other team is throwing their QB's into the fire. Lock is an exception to this trend and its very troubling.

Agree 100%.  The way Lock has been handled since the injury, comments made from the FO and coaches has shown they completely lack confidence in him.  They’ve essentially done everything in their power to keep him off the field and not only for game days, but keep him off the practice field for goodness sake.  

Edited November 25, 2019 by germ-x

[champ11]

Man the coaching staff is like so far down my list of concerns lol. We all know where the issues start and end....ownership and the related Elway situation. I think there has actually been some pretty encouraging stuff from the coaching staff - the defensive players that have been plugged in and played well, Justin Simmons making a leap, general competitiveness in games. But yeah I mean they have a long way to go as a staff too. But just not high up my concerns list.

We've beaten the main issues down to death I don't even care about discussing it anymore....but the Lock stuff is kinda interesting. It's clear that it's ineptitude to not play him but the reasoning? Who knows. Elway protecting his *** makes some sense. 

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, broncofan48 said:

Lock needs to play agreed but if anyone is keeping him benched Imo it’s coming from higher than Fangio

Honestly, I don't know how ppl think Fangio is making this call.  This is Elway's team.   For better or worse.    The reasons for why Elway isn't committing to this are certainly up for discussion (although I do think @BroncosFan2010 's point about Elway being worried about negative press if Lock struggles has complete merit, which to me is crazy - it's a lost season, it doesn't matter if he struggles, we need to find out now what we have, and if he makes enough progress to be worth passing on QB early <which I truly hope we do, because it looks more & more like Herbert is the man standing when we pick...which is terrifying, even more than Lock was last year - because Herbert requires an early Rd1 pick to commit to>).

And to be clear, here's the latest...

 

Fangio isn't going to make this call, Elway is.   Let's call it what it is here.  But at least it looks more like a matter of when, not if.

I can see that the FO MIGHT say "we want our best win-now lineup to play Week 14-15" since we face HOU & KC and affect the playoff race overall ... but then it's Week 16-17 against DET & OAK.   Personally, I think that's a totally secondary reason.  At this stage, you need as much info to see what you have in Lock as possible.   And to be clear, if he struggles, that's not going to be the bottom line - it's how much progress he makes along the way.  Which is why you want to see him for 4-5 games minimum.  We'll see.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[AKRNA]

35 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Honestly, I don't know how ppl think Fangio is making this call.  This is Elway's team.   For better or worse.    The reasons for why Elway isn't committing to this are certainly up for discussion (although I do think @BroncosFan2010 's point about Elway being worried about negative press if Lock struggles has complete merit, which to me is crazy - it's a lost season, it doesn't matter if he struggles, we need to find out now what we have, and if he makes enough progress to be worth passing on QB early <which I truly hope we do, because it looks more & more like Herbert is the man standing when we pick...which is terrifying, even more than Lock was last year - because Herbert requires an early Rd1 pick to commit to>).

And to be clear, here's the latest...

 

Fangio isn't going to make this call, Elway is.   Let's call it what it is here.  But at least it looks more like a matter of when, not if.

I can see that the FO MIGHT say "we want our best win-now lineup to play Week 14-15" since we face HOU & KC and affect the playoff race overall ... but then it's Week 16-17 against DET & OAK.   Personally, I think that's a totally secondary reason.  At this stage, you need as much info to see what you have in Lock as possible.   And to be clear, if he struggles, that's not going to be the bottom line - it's how much progress he makes along the way.  Which is why you want to see him for 4-5 games minimum.  We'll see.

I agree somewhat but why would you give a rookie QB his first NFL starts against the buzzsaw that's our next three games? Chargers at home, then both the Texans and Chiefs both fighting for the playoffs in must win situations on the road. I don't need to see it to tell you it'd be a disaster. 15+ sacks and multiple hits in that stretch. 

The last two weeks of the season at home against lousy teams is a much better way to let Lock get his feet wet.

 

[Broncofan]

13 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I agree somewhat but why would you give a rookie QB his first NFL starts against the buzzsaw that's our next three games? Chargers at home, then both the Texans and Chiefs both fighting for the playoffs in must win situations on the road. I don't need to see it to tell you it'd be a disaster. 15+ sacks and multiple hits in that stretch. 

The last two weeks of the season at home against lousy teams is a much better way to let Lock get his feet wet.

 

Normally I’d agree.   But in Lock’s case i think he struggles no matter who he plays the first 2-3 games.   He’s had zero game action since last year.   
 

The last 2 games are better matchups overall - so I’d hope to see improvement and progress then.    He struggles on Week 16-17 ppl will call him a bust pick when he’s simply trying to get acclimated to game speed again.    That’s what happened to Darnold on his return.   With more games we are seeing his ability shine through.   Sadly Lock is no Darnold but the more game time we give him the more we avoid SSS bias.  
 

I say that as someone who doesn’t think Lock’s the answer - but I’d want to give him as much time to show progress as possible.   It’s unrealistic to think he’ll do great even vs. DET/OAK.   Clear progress now would be the hope for 2020. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Broncofan

[champ11]

10 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I agree somewhat but why would you give a rookie QB his first NFL starts against the buzzsaw that's our next three games? Chargers at home, then both the Texans and Chiefs both fighting for the playoffs in must win situations on the road. I don't need to see it to tell you it'd be a disaster. 15+ sacks and multiple hits in that stretch. 

The last two weeks of the season at home against lousy teams is a much better way to let Lock get his feet wet.

 

I'd say it just doesn't matter either way. It's not going to ruin his career to have 3 tough games. If it does he probably isn't the guy anyway. If he's truly not healthy, sure. If he doesn't understand the playbook because of the lack of practice, sure. If he's good to go I don't see a reason to not play him. He's most likely going to have a bad OL next year as well - might as well see what he looks like sooner rather than later.