Yankees Just Decide to Not Pay Jacoby Ellsbury Guaranteed Money

[mission27]

On 11/22/2019 at 3:00 PM, redsoxsuck05 said:

This is 10000x scummier than what they tried to do to A-Rod, holy ****.

ofc the majority of Yankees fans will be thrilled bc they hate Ellsbury and use him as an excuse for why we don’t sign guys anymore

No

ARod is a good person, who contributed more to the Yankees than all but a handful of people ever, and they ****ed him over out of spite.  He was a martyr for the cause. 

Ellsbury is the biggest flea in baseball history and its honestly a crime he made this much money.  He should be in jail for stealing bases and money instead of being an average Cs and hitting home runs.

[mission27]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:14 PM, redsoxsuck05 said:

Ellsbury sucking doesn’t invalidate spending big money on the right players. Will you ever understand this? Virtually no one here supported the Ellsbury deal because our window was closed and he was an injury-prone guy who had a skillset that ages poorly.
 

George’s problem wasn’t that he spent, it’s that he was obsessed with 33 year old bums who went 3-4 against us once. And he traded actual prospects for them for some reason.

Ellsbury was THE CHEAP OPTION

They signed him because they didn’t want to give Cano big money

Yeah Cano isn’t that great anymore either... but he’s certainly done a hell of a lot more than Ellsbury since 2013 and maybe with Cano on the team we beat the Houston Fleas in 2017

[Slateman]

32 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Ellsbury was THE CHEAP OPTION

They signed him because they didn’t want to give Cano big money

Yeah Cano isn’t that great anymore either... but he’s certainly done a hell of a lot more than Ellsbury since 2013 and maybe with Cano on the team we beat the Houston Fleas in 2017

Yea, that 112 wRC+ would have wiped the floor with ...

*checks Fangraphs*

Starlin Castro's 111 wRC+

[Slateman]

2 hours ago, Leader said:

The team's paying the player while he's getting hurt - including his medical expenses - hence, they have a vested interest in his medical care. Not just for "quality of care" issues (and getting the player back on the field as quickly as possible) - but also for insurance and mitigating / controlling costs.

Players can get second opinions on matters but whether there's an "in network vs out of network" mandate to those functions, I cant say.

It could be as simple as Ellsbury getting medical attention from this outfit in Atlanta wasnt covered by the insurance policy.

I read that (for some unspecified reason....) the insurance didnt cover next year. Since his contract clearly went that long, its not clear to me why that would be. Perhaps using this Atlanta company was a factor.

But players should be able to seek outside treatment on their own dime. Unless theres something in the CBA that prohibits this ...?

[mission27]

17 minutes ago, Slateman said:

But players should be able to seek outside treatment on their own dime. Unless theres something in the CBA that prohibits this ...?

There are obviously obligations to get responsible medical care when it comes to work related injuries that are preventing you from working while getting paid $26m a year 

Maybe the Yankees think Ellsbury went off and got crazy treatments that kept him off the field

Maybe they think he was healthy all along but didn’t really want to play anymore and was getting second opinions to justify his paycheck

Who knows

Its gonna be a fight no matter what I doubt the Yankees are doing this without some cause though

[mission27]

28 minutes ago, Slateman said:

Yea, that 112 wRC+ would have wiped the floor with ...

*checks Fangraphs*

Starlin Castro's 111 wRC+

He would’ve contributed more than Ellsbury somewhere on the field 

[Leader]

3 hours ago, Slateman said:

But players should be able to seek outside treatment on their own dime. Unless theres something in the CBA that prohibits this ...?

I've no clue about that  -  but I've also not heard of any players that have actually paid their own way. Regardless, the team has to have a say in the matter given they're the ones cutting checks to the player. I've heard the team had an insurance policy that was covering 80% of salary and medical expenses. Why it didnt cover 2020 remains an actual mystery - but one reason could be the Ellsbury injuries simply took too long, the insurance company saw the end of the contract road coming up and determined they weren't going to extend it any longer - i.e. - prevent the team from paying out the contract via insurance means. That would make sense from the insurance company perspective. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

5 hours ago, Slateman said:

But players should be able to seek outside treatment on their own dime. Unless theres something in the CBA that prohibits this ...?

There's also precedent here. The Brewers could have fined Zack Greinke when he was injured in 2011 playing basketball, when the standard baseball contract expressly forbids players from other activities that may result in an injury. Even when Josh Hamilton relapsed during his stint with the Angels, they still had to pay out his remaining contract (they ultimately traded him back to the Rangers).

Here's a standard MLB contract: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/files/mlb-contract.pdf

From what I can see, the relevant portions of this contract are on Page 7, regulations 2 (what Ellsbury may have violated) and 5 (what the Yankees may do about it). The options the Yankees have would be a "reasonable" fine and/or a suspension not exceeding 30 days. There is nothing in there about turning guaranteed money into non-guaranteed money, but even if this is just code for a fine, in order for the forfeiture of the entire salary to be "reasonable", the Yankees are going to have to argue that these treatments specifically rendered Ellsbury useless for the whole year. We don't know that the treatments are, but unless the doctor was amputating stuff, that sounds ridiculous.

My read on those paragraphs is that this will go to a grievance, and Ellsbury will lose a small amount of his contract. At most, 30/182 service days of it.

 

Among the many stupid things going on with this, what may be the stupidest is that this type of overpaid player trade is something clubs deal with all the time. The Yankees could have gotten out from under his money by including him with a prospect, or tried to limit luxury tax implications by trading him in a dead-money for dead-money swap, with a guy who has $20MM coming over 2 or 3 years so that they free up $10MM in AAV this year. Ellsbury probably wasn't tradeable 2 years ago, but with only $20MM left, there's definitely a rebuilding club that would take a prospect for him. 

[redsoxsuck05]

10 hours ago, mission27 said:

No

ARod is a good person, who contributed more to the Yankees than all but a handful of people ever, and they ****ed him over out of spite.  He was a martyr for the cause. 

Ellsbury is the biggest flea in baseball history and its honestly a crime he made this much money.  He should be in jail for stealing bases and money instead of being an average Cs and hitting home runs.

Break character for a sec. Contracts are guaranteed and it’s the Yankees who made the dumbass decision to sign Ellsbury. Hal is just pissed that insurance won’t cover the last $26M.

Yankees management are scum. Wtf has Hal done to be entitled to Jacoby’s $26M. Be born and lobby to change the tax code?

[mission27]

2 hours ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

Break character for a sec. Contracts are guaranteed and it’s the Yankees who made the dumbass decision to sign Ellsbury. Hal is just pissed that insurance won’t cover the last $26M.

Yankees management are scum. Wtf has Hal done to be entitled to Jacoby’s $26M. Be born and lobby to change the tax code?

I'm not gonna shed tears over Hitler backstabbing Satan

[Slateman]

14 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

There's also precedent here. The Brewers could have fined Zack Greinke when he was injured in 2011 playing basketball, when the standard baseball contract expressly forbids players from other activities that may result in an injury. Even when Josh Hamilton relapsed during his stint with the Angels, they still had to pay out his remaining contract (they ultimately traded him back to the Rangers).

Here's a standard MLB contract: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/files/mlb-contract.pdf

From what I can see, the relevant portions of this contract are on Page 7, regulations 2 (what Ellsbury may have violated) and 5 (what the Yankees may do about it). The options the Yankees have would be a "reasonable" fine and/or a suspension not exceeding 30 days. There is nothing in there about turning guaranteed money into non-guaranteed money, but even if this is just code for a fine, in order for the forfeiture of the entire salary to be "reasonable", the Yankees are going to have to argue that these treatments specifically rendered Ellsbury useless for the whole year. We don't know that the treatments are, but unless the doctor was amputating stuff, that sounds ridiculous.

My read on those paragraphs is that this will go to a grievance, and Ellsbury will lose a small amount of his contract. At most, 30/182 service days of it.

 

Among the many stupid things going on with this, what may be the stupidest is that this type of overpaid player trade is something clubs deal with all the time. The Yankees could have gotten out from under his money by including him with a prospect, or tried to limit luxury tax implications by trading him in a dead-money for dead-money swap, with a guy who has $20MM coming over 2 or 3 years so that they free up $10MM in AAV this year. Ellsbury probably wasn't tradeable 2 years ago, but with only $20MM left, there's definitely a rebuilding club that would take a prospect for him. 

Did Ellsbury hurt himself doing a non-baseball activity that was forbidden by his contract?

There's nothing in that contract that says you cannot receive medical care from outside of the team. Unless Ellsbury didn't show up to a physical for the team, I don't see how this has any standing.

It would be extremely unethical to not allow an employee to get his/her out medical services from outside. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, Slateman said:

Did Ellsbury hurt himself doing a non-baseball activity that was forbidden by his contract?

There's nothing in that contract that says you cannot receive medical care from outside of the team. Unless Ellsbury didn't show up to a physical for the team, I don't see how this has any standing.

It would be extremely unethical to not allow an employee to get his/her out medical services from outside. 

Page 7 of the contract, section 2 says:

Quote

Disability directly resulting from injury sustained in the course and within the scope of his employment under this contract shall not impair the right of the Player to receive his full salary for the period of such disability or for the season in which the injury was sustained (whichever period is shorter), together with reasonable medical and hospital expenses incurred by reason of the injury and during the term of this contract for a period of up to two years from the date of initial treatment for such injury, whichever period is longer, but only upon the express prerequisite conditions that

(a) written notice of such injury, including the time, place cause, and nature of the injury, is served upon and received by the Club within twenty days of the sustaining of said injury

(b) the Club shall have the right to designate the doctors and hospitals furnishing such medical and hospital services.

That's a brutal run-on sentence, but I take it to mean "if you get hurt playing baseball, you're covered, but we get to choose your treatments". If Ellsbury got treatments from a non-approved doctor, that'd be a small violation of this clause because this was treatment for a baseball injury.

I think Ellsbury would still have the right to choose his own doctor/hospital if he wanted for non-baseball issues.

Edited November 25, 2019 by ramssuperbowl99

[mission27]

1 hour ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Page 7 of the contract, section 2 says:

That's a brutal run-on sentence, but I take it to mean "if you get hurt playing baseball, you're covered, but we get to choose your treatments". If Ellsbury got treatments from a non-approved doctor, that'd be a small violation of this clause because this was treatment for a baseball injury.

I think Ellsbury would still have the right to choose his own doctor/hospital if he wanted for non-baseball issues.

Right and given he missed so much time with recurring injuries, and the dollars at stake, maybe not such a small violation (if it was related to baseball injuries)

not saying it’s a valid reason to void the contract... but it could plausibly be and maybe enough that Ellsbury settles for a fraction of dollars owed

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 minute ago, mission27 said:

Right and given he missed so much time with recurring injuries, and the dollars at stake, maybe not such a small violation (if it was related to baseball injuries)

not saying it’s a valid reason to void the contract... but it could plausibly be and maybe enough that Ellsbury settles for a fraction of dollars owed

I think the Yankees get like a few million from arbitration, which is the 30 day suspension that is listed as the max penalty.

And going to court over a bad free agent to try and weasel your way out of $2MM is such flea **** that I half expect George to rise out of his grave, walk into the proceedings, pay off Ellsubry by throwing hundreds around, and formally disown Hal.

[mission27]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I think the Yankees get like a few million from arbitration, which is the 30 day suspension that is listed as the max penalty.

And going to court over a bad free agent to try and weasel your way out of $2MM is such flea **** that I half expect George to rise out of his grave, walk into the proceedings, pay off Ellsubry by throwing hundreds around, and formally disown Hal.

Its not about the money

its about sending a message