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TheOnlyThing

Inside Linebacker ... IT IS TIME

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1 minute ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Fans don't respect players that have to play a significant number of 2 gap assignments.

 

It's not about not respecting Clark.  I think he's a very good player but he hasn't exactly been all that dominate this year.  I'm not saying that he isn't a better player than Martinez, more so than he hasn't been anymore of a difference maker.  Kenny Clark is a better football player than Blake Martinez but I'm not sure the gap is as big as some will be eager to make it out to me.  

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when i think of the best defensive schemes which have caused issues for good passers like brady, like peyton manning, like Aaron Rodgers, I do think they are schemes which have good coverage LBs.  

 

Teams like Carolina, Seattle, old NYJets, Chicago have played well vs good quarterbacks in part by being able to play a run stopping personnel group that can make plays in the passing game.  Pettine and Capers' solution is basically  "all or nothing" in that you are gonna really sell out to to stop the pass by running a lot of DBs.  And the role of the LB in this scheme is simply that of "clean up" rather than playmaker.

 

Where this falls short is a little counter-intuitive, but what I frequently see is an overmatched box from a run defense perspective.  And because they are overmatched, and know they are overmatched, it takes an incredible individual play to actually stop the run, or it takes over-aggression by a DB.  And while it may be "fun" to come up and hit a run gap as Adrian Amos has done once in a while... most of these other DBs can't play it both ways.  Because of the size and numbers disadvantage that the scheme puts them in, they are never in a position to make the over the middle throws difficult while still playing the run.

 

This scheme, in a nutshell, is designed to get a sack on 1st down when the offense, if they were smart, would just run it every first down until they come up to stop it or play fewer DBs.  If the defense doesn't get a sack on 1st or 2nd down, it is way behind compared to other teams because they don't have the horses to actually cover people and be acceptable vs the run.  So it's a combo of either HUGE passing plays when they get sucked in too far, or consistent 8 yard gains via the run and short passes.

 

which is all to say that while ILB is not a position that should be spent high draft capital on under this coach and this scheme.  Trying to embody a defense more similar to Pittsburgh would be my preference.  That team invests in ILB and actually uses those players appropriately.

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14 minutes ago, SSG said:

Clark hasn't been any better this year than Martinez.

Clark is the only DL playing like he deserves a roster spot. 
 

The Packers defense sucks because our DL sucks. The only pressure we get is off the edge and if they don’t get home it’s a big play because the QB has a ton of time. 

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1 minute ago, MantyWrestler said:

Clark is the only DL playing like he deserves a roster spot. 
 

The Packers defense sucks because our DL sucks. The only pressure we get is off the edge and if they don’t get home it’s a big play because the QB has a ton of time. 

there's only 2 DL.  So you're saying this team is awful because there is 1.2 awful players at the non kenny clark snaps?

There's plenty of other problems, including what's going on with all 3 CBs, heck, all the DBs except Amos.  And even Amos is doing things which he is good at but is doing in favor of playing deep safety where we are pretty weak.

 

Tramon Williams is a liability but consistent and playing up to his ability.  Kevin King is wildly inconsistent and not even playing close to his ability.  Jaire is having a quietly disappointing 2nd season but it's still solid #1 CB production.  Savage has not been good since the injury, and don't get me started on the other ILB/S guys.

 

This team has flaws and imperfections at almost every position outside of Edge.

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6 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

Clark is the only DL playing like he deserves a roster spot. 
 

The Packers defense sucks because our DL sucks. The only pressure we get is off the edge and if they don’t get home it’s a big play because the QB has a ton of time. 

I completely agree.  Clark's the only defensive lineman worth a **** on the roster. 

My point was that Martinez isn't the horrible football player he's being made out to be in this thread.  The gap between him and Clark isn't all that big IMO.  Neither are top tier, dominate players for their positions IMO.  

Edited by SSG

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2 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

there's only 2 DL.  So you're saying this team is awful because there is 1.2 awful players at the non kenny clark snaps?

There's plenty of other problems, including what's going on with all 3 CBs, heck, all the DBs except Amos.  And even Amos is doing things which he is good at but is doing in favor of playing deep safety where we are pretty weak.

 

Tramon Williams is a liability but consistent and playing up to his ability.  Kevin King is wildly inconsistent and not even playing close to his ability.  Jaire is having a quietly disappointing 2nd season but it's still solid #1 CB production.  Savage has not been good since the injury, and don't get me started on the other ILB/S guys.

 

This team has flaws and imperfections at almost every position outside of Edge.

There are only 2 DL out there because someone has to play. Notice that it’s only KC on passing downs for the DL? Our NT is in on passing downs before any other DL on the roster. THATS a problem. 

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3 minutes ago, SSG said:

I completely agree.  Clark's the only defensive lineman worth a **** on the roster. 

My point was that Martinez isn't the horrible football player he's being made out to be in this thread.  The gap between him and Clark isn't all that big IMO.  Neither are dominate players for their positions IMO.  

Put someone worthy of a roster spot beside KC and see how good he plays. Same with Martinez. He’s all alone in the middle of a 3-4

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1 minute ago, MantyWrestler said:

Put someone worthy of a roster spot beside KC and see how good he plays. Same with Martinez. He’s all alone in the middle of a 3-4

I agree.  I'd wager that Martinez isn't being made out to be the NFL's worst starting LBs if our defensive line wasn't garbage.  

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32 minutes ago, SSG said:

I think he's a very good player but he hasn't exactly been all that dominate this year.

Clark is overrated because he might not be dominate.

Edited by incognito_man

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57 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

which is all to say that while ILB is not a position that should be spent high draft capital on under this coach and this scheme.  Trying to embody a defense more similar to Pittsburgh would be my preference.  That team invests in ILB and actually uses those players appropriately.

When I listed the top 5 current scoring defenses (NE, SF, Buff, Chic, and Minn) and how all of those teams had invested high draft picks into the ILB position, I failed to note that Dallas is currently 6th in scoring defense and Pittsburgh is 7th.

Interestingly, Dallas took an ILB (Vander Esch) in round 1 in 2018 to take over the position from former 2nd round pick Sean Lee (who is still around).

As for Pittsburgh, they used the 10th overall pick in the 2019 draft on Devin Bush.

Now it may be true as some folks insist that taking an inside linebacker in the first 2 rounds is a drafting mistake of the first order.

Then again, given that the top 7 NFL teams in scoring defense in 2019 have all invested more draft and cap space capital into the ILB position than the Packers have and the Packers D continues to struggle even with the emergence of 2 very good OLBs, perhaps it might be prudent to seriously consider upgrading the position for the first time in forever.

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1 minute ago, TheOnlyThing said:

When I listed the top 5 current scoring defenses (NE, SF, Buff, Chic, and Minn) and how all of those teams had invested high draft picks into the ILB position, I failed to note that Dallas is currently 6th in scoring defense and Pittsburgh is 7th.

Interestingly, Dallas took an ILB (Vander Esch) in round 1 in 2018 to take over the position from former 2nd round pick Sean Lee (who is still around).

As for Pittsburgh, they used the 10th overall pick in the 2019 draft on Devin Bush.

Now it may be true as some folks insist that taking an inside linebacker in the first 2 rounds is a drafting mistake of the first order.

Then again, given that the top 7 NFL teams in scoring defense in 2019 have all invested more draft and cap space capital into the ILB position than the Packers have and the Packers D continues to struggle even with the emergence of 2 very good OLBs, perhaps it might be prudent to seriously consider upgrading the position for the first time in forever.

you're conflating their point which is - don't draft ILB for this scheme because it would go to waste and be just a marginal improvement

 

with

 

ILB isn't important ever for any team in the NFL

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Just now, skibrett15 said:

you're conflating their point which is - don't draft ILB for this scheme because it would go to waste and be just a marginal improvement

 

with

 

ILB isn't important ever for any team in the NFL

Not really.

I'm establishing that the top 7 scoring defenses have invested in the ILB position unlike the Packers.

I also have no doubt that, he Pettine had the requisite talent, Pettine's use of the ILBs or even a lone ILB would be much different.

Seem to recall that Bart Scott played a pretty significant role in Pettine's defenses in both Baltimore and with the Jets.

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2 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Lol.  Zach Brown is a free agent right now who got cut by two teams this year.  The best way to tell people you don’t know a damn thing is by saying we should have signed somebody who is currently a free agent.

Zach Brown is better than Blake at covering people and stopping the run. His issue is attitude and/or personality.

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14 minutes ago, FAH1223 said:

Zach Brown is better than Blake at covering people and stopping the run. His issue is attitude and/or personality.

Thanks, Dr. Madden.

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47 minutes ago, FAH1223 said:

Zach Brown is better than Blake at covering people and stopping the run. His issue is attitude and/or personality.

The packers dont like those types of guys. As do the teams that cut him. Browns not gonna change life at the position. 

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