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Inside Linebacker ... IT IS TIME


TheOnlyThing

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8 hours ago, pacman5252 said:

I’m always for getting better and I’m not going to debate that Blake had had a subpar year. 

I will say though using a 11 game sample from 1 year of pff grades to justify your position is pretty flawed argument.  

You may be correct that Blake is just having a particularly bad year and that my desire to move on from him is somewhat distorted by recency bias. I would even acknowledge that Martinez has probably been the best inside linebacker to play in Green Bay since before Desmond Bishop got hurt in the 2012 pre-season.

But that is such a ridiculously low standard and the ILB play has been so underwhelming for so long that it really is time to completely re-evaluate the situation at the position.

Moreover, in the past couple of years offensive coordinators saw a really weak group of OLBs who neither set the edge nor rushed the passer well and an "unsettled" (and untalented) group of DBs who could be thrown on at will so there was less need to focus on the enduring weakness that is the middle of our D. I mean the D could be beat in a multitude of ways so why focus on attacking the middle of the field.

This season, with BETTER PLAY at certainly OLB and SAFETY, offensive coordinators have attacked the middle of the D with more regularity and Martinez has been brutal.

Now, if he has an undisclosed injury (or a disclosed one the effects of which have not been fully revealed) that is one thing.

But if the best defense for Martinez's woeful play (in his contract year) is that he is just not a good fit for Pettine's scheme then either Pettine or Martinez needs to go.

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27 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

You may be correct that Blake is just having a particularly bad year and that my desire to move on from him is somewhat distorted by recency bias. I would even acknowledge that Martinez has probably been the best inside linebacker to play in Green Bay since before Desmond Bishop got hurt in the 2012 pre-season.

But that is such a ridiculously low standard and the ILB play has been so underwhelming for so long that it really is time to completely re-evaluate the situation at the position.

Moreover, in the past couple of years offensive coordinators saw a really weak group of OLBs who neither set the edge nor rushed the passer well and an "unsettled" (and untalented) group of DBs who could be thrown on at will so there was less need to focus on the enduring weakness that is the middle of our D. I mean the D could be beat in a multitude of ways so why focus on attacking the middle of the field.

This season, with BETTER PLAY at certainly OLB and SAFETY, offensive coordinators have attacked the middle of the D with more regularity and Martinez has been brutal.

Now, if he has an undisclosed injury (or a disclosed one the effects of which have not been fully revealed) that is one thing.

But if the best defense for Martinez's woeful play (in his contract year) is that he is just not a good fit for Pettine's scheme then either Pettine or Martinez needs to go.

Why are you so adamant that Martinez is playing terribly? Which plays this year have you so convinced he's this awful player?

I will happily go through and grab them if you tell me which ones are giving you this heartburn?

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51 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

I'll agree with you that Burks was a genuine effort to address the ILB hole by Gute.

He even traded up to pick him. Unfortunately, through 27 games it does not look like the Burks' gamble has worked out.

As for Josh Jones, who the F knows what they were doing on defense, schematically or personnel-wise, in Dom's and the previous GM's last season.

Jones certainly never wanted to play ILB and he made that clear before getting cut. He is now back to playing safety in Dallas.

Can you think of a college safety who is thriving playing ILB on a top 10 (or even top 16) defense?

As for Ryan and Martinez being selected in round 4, they were projected as JAGs when selected and they've performed as JAGs, hence the need to FINALLY, FINALLY use a higher pick or trade for or sign someone in free agency who gives the GB better than JAG play in the middle of the defense.

Josh Jones 6'1", 220lb and ran a 4.41 40.  He was drafted to play safety and coverage ILB. He failed at both.

Both Ryan and Martinez  were not JAGs, they were both thought to be one of, if not the most intuitive, heady guys at the position, in each of the years they were drafted.

Three of these guys were definite efforts to draft an ILB.   J.J. was (I think) a compromise pick who could do either with some work.

Again I'll say that they were a long way from ignoring the position, and though they tried hard to fill it adequately, they will probably have to go ILB again in the 2020 draft before round 5.

I'd rather the first picks in 2020 were OT, DL, WR, but ILB is virtually as important. If the Pack can fill any of those choices with a veteran pickup, then that leaves the remaining three positions as targets for the first three rounds (though of course we never really know what the Packers will do until they have done it).

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2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Why are you so adamant that Martinez is playing terribly? Which plays this year have you so convinced he's this awful player?

I will happily go through and grab them if you tell me which ones are giving you this heartburn?

This was Martinez's scouting combine report. I think we can safely say he's improved on this report over time. 

STRENGTHS

Good muscle thickness and one of the most powerful, pound­-for­-pound players in the program. Has desired temperament to play in the middle. Physical, productive tackler. Downhill linebacker. Business-minded machine against the run, maintaining consistent gap responsibility. Disciplined on back-side squeezing cutback lanes. Stuffs second level leg blocks and keeps gliding down the line. Uses heavy hands at the point of attack. Plays square to line of scrimmage with eyes stuck on runner. Plus balance and keeps his feet. Will dart and dodge past oncoming, second level traffic in lateral pursuit of ball carrier. Improved against the pass from 2014 to 2015. Showed some functional ability in man coverage and is quick to close out throws and limit yards after catch. Offers instant special teams value. Willing worker on "teams" and finds the ball.

WEAKNESSES

Slow twitch with borderline play speed. Must transition from a power mindset to a little more quickness in everything he does. Will need quicker hands to jab and separate to stay clean against NFL linemen. Below average lateral quickness. Won't win many foot races to the perimeter and has little margin for error with his angles. Not athletic enough to recover if he gets hung ­up on a block for too long. Too easily fooled into vacating his positioning by play-­action. Doesn't have reactive athleticism to quickly recover back into his duties after biting on fakes. More of a block occupier than serious threat when blitzing. Average awareness dropping into zone coverage. Situational awareness needs work.

I don't think you can say with a straight face that he was supposed to be a completely ILB. Let's look at our corps from 2016 on:

2016: Blake was part of a group with CMIII rotating in and out still, Ryan, and Joe Thomas. Joe Thomas' role was as a chaser LB that generally excelled in coverage.

2017: The group didn't exactly change, but CMIII was moved back to solely rushing the QB. This is probably where most people have a problem with us allegedly dodging the ILB situation. However, if you look at that draft, we traded down for Kevin King with golden boy TJ Watt taken immediately after the pick we gave up to Cleveland. Not a single ILB is taken before our 2nd pick in the 2nd round either. However, two ILB's are taken well before our pick in the 3rd round. The first is Duke Riley who is considered undersized and soft as a result immediately followed by an injury-prone Alex Anzalone. We then pick Vince Biegel immediately after Kendall Beckwith is selected early in the 4th with the additional pick the Browns gave us for 29. Beckwith had a respectable rookie season and then disappeared without a trace...

2018: This is the first year with Burks who gets hurt and we had a major hole. We don't have Joe Thomas anymore(not that he was a world beater) and CMIII isn't being moved inside. Additionally, Mike Daniels falls off a cliff, gets hurt along with Mo Wilkerson, and then the IDL is strugging with Clark and Lowry as the mainstays, Montravious Adams, and then a bunch of street players just like at ILB. 

But all of that is on Blake Martinez, all of that means he's a JAG and that we have an insurmountable hole at the position, nevermind his production. He's done exactly what we've expected him to do and he's been a solid player. Our issue, again, is what's in front of him, and what's next to him. We've solidified the EDGE and have significantly bulked up the DB position regardless of how we feel about Kevin King. We have an uncoming draft that is DEEP with IDL mainly between rounds 3-5. The same goes for OLB's who we would generally pick to fill that ILB role; same with ILB as well. I seriously doubt we will "ignore the position" this year.

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40 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

I'll agree with you that Burks was a genuine effort to address the ILB hole by Gute.

He even traded up to pick him. Unfortunately, through 27 games it does not look like the Burks' gamble has worked out.

As for Josh Jones, who the F knows what they were doing on defense, schematically or personnel-wise, in Dom's and the previous GM's last season.

Jones certainly never wanted to play ILB and he made that clear before getting cut. He is now back to playing safety in Dallas.

Can you think of a college safety who is thriving playing ILB on a top 10 (or even top 16) defense?

As for Ryan and Martinez being selected in round 4, they were projected as JAGs when selected and they've performed as JAGs, hence the need to FINALLY, FINALLY use a higher pick or trade for or sign someone in free agency who gives the GB better than JAG play in the middle of the defense.

Projected as JAGs?  This is an argument that's built purely on hindsight.  Was Joe Schobert a projected JAG?  Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez weren't all that much smaller of an investment into the ILB/ MLB than what San Fran spent on Warner.  While Warner went a round earlier, he was not a sure fire ILB prospect.  Warner is obviously a better player but he has the luxury of playing behind a defensive front that has 5 recent first round picks in it.  
 

Brian Urlacher won the was a Jim Thorpe award winner in college and he's about as good of a MLB that has played the game in my lifetime.  Thomas Davis, Shaq Thompson and Mark Barron are or were all very good LBs who played some safety in college. I don't agree with the idea that all it takes is a high pick at ILB to have a great defense.  

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On 11/25/2019 at 12:05 PM, SSG said:

The defensive line is far more important than who's playing behind them.  ILBs/ MLBs are only as good as the guys in front of them.  If Blake Martinez played in Buffalo, New England, San Fran or Chicago I think the opinion of him would be much different.  Given the amount of defensive line talent, those aren't great examples of a MLB/ ILB being one of the most important positions on the defense.

 

About the only exception to that IMO is New England who's scheme doesn't seem to be effected by any change in personnel.  Hard to point at Hightower being in the middle as the reasoning for their success given how easily he's replaced when injured (which is extremely often).

 

Outside of Outposts earlier post, this here is correct.

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with Blake at all.  It is the DL that makes things tick.

I think I saw the San Fran linebacker Warner on that list.  Oh.  My.  God.  What a joke.  Did you ever see a lineman touch him in our game?  Keep the ILB clean and he will make an impact.  It isn't like Warner is even very good.  He's fine and that's about all you can say.  It is his front 4 that is out-fricking-standing.  

Burks would look just as good as Warner with that front, and I'm not even joking.

You want your ILB to be a stud?  Put a great front 4 in front of him.  It really is that easy.

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22 hours ago, SSG said:

It's not about not respecting Clark.  I think he's a very good player but he hasn't exactly been all that dominate this year.  I'm not saying that he isn't a better player than Martinez, more so than he hasn't been anymore of a difference maker.  Kenny Clark is a better football player than Blake Martinez but I'm not sure the gap is as big as some will be eager to make it out to me.  

You are right, and probably underselling both Martinez and Clark.  If you want to see them both explode, but another quality DL on that line.

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6 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with Blake at all.  It is the DL that makes things tick.

True to an extent. Putting him along out in the middle of it all - is challenging indeed - regardless of the DL in front of him. Having a steel curtain in front sure would be helpful - but still. That "man on an island" scheme would be a challenge from most ILBs.

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13 minutes ago, Leader said:

True to an extent. Putting him along out in the middle of it all - is challenging indeed - regardless of the DL in front of him. Having a steel curtain in front sure would be helpful - but still. That "man on an island" scheme would be a challenge from most ILBs.

Yes, but, if you have a great front in front of him, creating pressure, you don't have to cover for long and you look to take short away first, as the rush should get there before receivers get into the deep part of the field.

Why is Sherman having a good year?  Pressure up front.  He doesn't have to cover for very long.  Sure would be nice if we could do that and help out the secondary.

And...just because i want in on the "rants"...can we please put Fackrell in at ILB?  Set him on the farthest hash, 5 yards from the LOS and tell him to wait for the crosser.  Everyone kills us there, might as well try to defend it.  It is almost laughable how many routes are run right there against us and we just can't cover them.  Heck, take it one step farther.  Zone drop Lowry into that area.  He's not getting home anyway, might as well defend some green stuff.

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I want another stud DL in round 1 and a RT in round 2. It's been proven you can find talent at any position at any round, but your chances improve the higher you draft one. Give me a stud 3-tech next to Clark and you can put Adams, Lowry or Keke on the other side and let's play. 

You can get an ILB either in free agency or round 3. The 9ers may be letting Kwon Alexander walk after this year because Warner has taken over and he's not letting go of that spot. 

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3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Why are you so adamant that Martinez is playing terribly? Which plays this year have you so convinced he's this awful player?

I will happily go through and grab them if you tell me which ones are giving you this heartburn?

You and I have come full circle on the subject of Blake Martinez. When he was drafted, I argued he would definitely be an upgrade over Ryan and quickly become the best ILBer in Green Bay while IIRC you did not believe that would be the case. Anyway, nearly four years later I think practically everyone concedes that Blake is the curently teh "best" ILBer in GB and has been for quite some time.

The "problem" from my standpoint is that, while he may be the "best" (of a bad lot ILBers), Martinez is just not very good at anything other than maybe being "assignment sure" and is an objectively JAG player.

Is Blake a coverage guy? Well no one really pretends that he is and in fact the same, tired excuses about how Blake should not be expected to cover a TE or a RB and it is all the fault of the coach calling the defense are being used now that were previously used to excuse the pitiful coverage of the former Packer ILBer who shall remain nameless.

Serious question, what do you do, in a passing league, with an ILBer like Martinez who can't cover?

Furthermore, if Pettine is running a scheme that demands more out of his ILBers than Martinez can deliever and assuming Pettine is not getting fired after this season, why would any Packer fan want to pay Martinez to continue to play a role he is not physically capable of fulfilling?

And when I read the description of Martinez's combine weaknesses (cited by Joe above and again below) all I can think is YUP THEY SURE GOT MARTINEZ RIGHT:

WEAKNESSES

Slow twitch with borderline play speed. Must transition from a power mindset to a little more quickness in everything he does. Will need quicker hands to jab and separate to stay clean against NFL linemen. Below average lateral quickness. Won't win many foot races to the perimeter and has little margin for error with his angles. Not athletic enough to recover if he gets hung ­up on a block for too long. Too easily fooled into vacating his positioning by play-­action. Doesn't have reactive athleticism to quickly recover back into his duties after biting on fakes. More of a block occupier than serious threat when blitzing. Average awareness dropping into zone coverage. Situational awareness needs work

Now, if Martinez was being asked to play a 2-down thumper role, perhaps his speed/quickness limitations could be overlooked, but he is not a thumper not even close. And can anyone say with a straight face that Martinez is an above-average hitter/run-stopper?

Another oft-repeated "explanation" for Martinez's lackluster performance concerns the defensive line play in front of him. If folks want to contend that the DL is trash outside of Clark they will get no argument from me. And if folks want to argue that the DL is a bigger need in the upcoming draft, again that is a perfectly good take.

But just because Lowry, Lancaster, and Adams have not done their part it does not mean Martinez is a player worthy of a healthy second contract. And remember, In Blake's eyes, he is “among the best inside linebackers in the league and will seek to be compensated accordingly.” https://theathletic.com/852139/2019/03/05/cohen-what-was-learned-about-the-packers-offseason-at-the-nfl-combine/ According to Ryan Wood of the GB Press Gazette, Martinez may be seeking $10M a year on his next deal.

My view of Martinez tracks what others have recently reported. I am not saying the folks being quoted are infallible experts, but I do agree with their views on Blake's play:

Inside linebacker Blake Martinez also had another rough game. Yes, he led the team in tackles (12 total, five solo), but his limitations were on full display: he’s an undersized inside linebacker with passive run-stopping instincts and less-than-ideal speed in space.” https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/11/05/struggling-packers-defense-needs-more-out-of-lb-blake-martinez/

(Martinez) gets people down, but not where a good defense needs them downIn coverage, his play is equally ineffectual. He drifts, he’s a limited athlete and he’s slow. Maybe the coaches think command of the defense makes him untouchable. If not, Goodson, Burks and rookie Ty Summers all are available.” https://theathletic.com/1352053/2019/11/05/mcginns-grading-the-packers-listless-effort-from-the-start-dooms-green-bay/

"Martinez ... struggles to shed blockers once he is engaged. But he also doesn’t have the speed or athleticism to be effective in coverage either. Truthfully, he might just be another guy." https://dairylandexpress.com/2019/11/07/green-bay-packers-blake-martinez-era-end/

IMO Martinez has earned his poor 56.9 PFF rating for his play thus far in 2019 and I don't see the wisdom of rewarding such a mediocre player.

Now I've gone on record as saying that Pettine's scheme could be doing Martinez no favors and that the defensive line has been abysmal in front of him but if you want to proffer any other arguments to excuse any (real or perceived) deficiencies in Martinez's play and let me know why he is actually playing like an ILBer worthy of a $10M a year, multi-year investment, I'll certainly consider those argument carefully.  

 

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20 hours ago, KFP7 said:

For those two plays, is it just a perfect play-call for the defensive formation type of thing?  Based off of what you said, I don't see how any defense in the league can stop those plays if they are lined up the same way.  I guess a pass-rush getting to the QB in 3 seconds, but even then both of those completions were on short routes.  Even if the ball is out quick, and the deep coverage hasn't dropped too far yet, it's still a positive pick-up.  

So there's a few ways to go about this.

From a playcalling/tactical standpoint, you try to be less predictable in what you're running.  This is both down to tendencies and mixing up your looks and coverages, as well as disguising your playcall (post-snap rotations, pre-snap audibles based on looks, etc.)  Alternatively, you can upgrade the personnel on the field.  Elite players can make up for certain deficiencies in a specific play design.  Earl Thomas is a great example of this; he can shut down plays specifically designed to exploit certain coverages just because his intelligence, field vision and straight line speed are all elite.  It's tough to flood his zone with more guys than he can cover just because of how much ground he can actually cover.

From a strategic standpoint, there's additional variants of coverages and play design you can run to combat specific offensive counter-punches.  Pattern matching (a zone look that becomes man to man if the offense runs certain route combos/designs, generally vertical looks), combo coverages (running zone/man coverage hybrids regardless of routes), fire zones (replace a blitzer with a dropping lineman), etc.  

So it's a combination of all of these things.  If Martinez had 4.4 speed, he probably takes McCaffrey down for a short gain instead of nearly a TD without changing anything.  If the Panthers weren't able to so easily predict what the Packers were going to run, they may have been able to get these play calls against more advantageous defenses.  Adding more complicated post-snap responsibilites is an option, although that's difficult with the overall level of experience of much of the secondary.  Looking at his second example, Tramon plays a pattern match zone, reading the vertical stems on his side and knowing the safety will be flooded and carrying his man deep; however, Packers fans have seen tons of examples the past few years of corners and safeties reading the play wrong and passing/not passing their responsibilites correctly.  Every additional read you ask a defender to make adds processing time to the play, and the less experienced and slower they process the bigger the impact.  

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16 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

You and I have come full circle on the subject of Blake Martinez. When he was drafted, I argued he would definitely be an upgrade over Ryan and quickly become the best ILBer in Green Bay while IIRC you did not believe that would be the case. Anyway, nearly four years later I think practically everyone concedes that Blake is the curently teh "best" ILBer in GB and has been for quite some time.

The "problem" from my standpoint is that, while he may be the "best" (of a bad lot ILBers), Martinez is just not very good at anything other than maybe being "assignment sure" and is an objectively JAG player.

Is Blake a coverage guy? Well no one really pretends that he is and in fact the same, tired excuses about how Blake should not be expected to cover a TE or a RB and it is all the fault of the coach calling the defense are being used now that were previously used to excuse the pitiful coverage of the former Packer ILBer who shall remain nameless.

Serious question, what do you do, in a passing league, with an ILBer like Martinez who can't cover?

Furthermore, if Pettine is running a scheme that demands more out of his ILBers than Martinez can deliever and assuming Pettine is not getting fired after this season, why would any Packer fan want to pay Martinez to continue to play a role he is not physically capable of fulfilling?

And when I read the description of Martinez's combine weaknesses (cited by Joe above and again below) all I can think is YUP THEY SURE GOT MARTINEZ RIGHT:

WEAKNESSES

Slow twitch with borderline play speed. Must transition from a power mindset to a little more quickness in everything he does. Will need quicker hands to jab and separate to stay clean against NFL linemen. Below average lateral quickness. Won't win many foot races to the perimeter and has little margin for error with his angles. Not athletic enough to recover if he gets hung ­up on a block for too long. Too easily fooled into vacating his positioning by play-­action. Doesn't have reactive athleticism to quickly recover back into his duties after biting on fakes. More of a block occupier than serious threat when blitzing. Average awareness dropping into zone coverage. Situational awareness needs work

Now, if Martinez was being asked to play a 2-down thumper role, perhaps his speed/quickness limitations could be overlooked, but he is not a thumper not even close. And can anyone say with a straight face that Martinez is an above-average hitter/run-stopper?

Another oft-repeated "explanation" for Martinez's lackluster performance concerns the defensive line play in front of him. If folks want to contend that the DL is trash outside of Clark they will get no argument from me. And if folks want to argue that the DL is a bigger need in the upcoming draft, again that is a perfectly good take.

But just because Lowry, Lancaster, and Adams have not done their part it does not mean Martinez is a player worthy of a healthy second contract. And remember, In Blake's eyes, he is “among the best inside linebackers in the league and will seek to be compensated accordingly.” https://theathletic.com/852139/2019/03/05/cohen-what-was-learned-about-the-packers-offseason-at-the-nfl-combine/ According to Ryan Wood of the GB Press Gazette, Martinez may be seeking $10M a year on his next deal.

My view of Martinez tracks what others have recently reported. I am not saying the folks being quoted are infallible experts, but I do agree with their views on Blake's play:

Inside linebacker Blake Martinez also had another rough game. Yes, he led the team in tackles (12 total, five solo), but his limitations were on full display: he’s an undersized inside linebacker with passive run-stopping instincts and less-than-ideal speed in space.” https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/11/05/struggling-packers-defense-needs-more-out-of-lb-blake-martinez/

(Martinez) gets people down, but not where a good defense needs them downIn coverage, his play is equally ineffectual. He drifts, he’s a limited athlete and he’s slow. Maybe the coaches think command of the defense makes him untouchable. If not, Goodson, Burks and rookie Ty Summers all are available.” https://theathletic.com/1352053/2019/11/05/mcginns-grading-the-packers-listless-effort-from-the-start-dooms-green-bay/

"Martinez ... struggles to shed blockers once he is engaged. But he also doesn’t have the speed or athleticism to be effective in coverage either. Truthfully, he might just be another guy." https://dairylandexpress.com/2019/11/07/green-bay-packers-blake-martinez-era-end/

IMO Martinez has earned his poor 56.9 PFF rating for his play thus far in 2019 and I don't see the wisdom of rewarding such a mediocre player.

Now I've gone on record as saying that Pettine's scheme could be doing Martinez no favors and that the defensive line has been abysmal in front of him but if you want to proffer any other arguments to excuse any (real or perceived) deficiencies in Martinez's play and let me know why he is actually playing like an ILBer worthy of a $10M a year, multi-year investment, I'll certainly consider those argument carefully.  

 

You didn't answer my question (an achievement considering the Russian novel you wrote, I would have thought you might have stumbled into it in the way that a cat walking on a type writer would eventually stumble into King Lear).

What plays from last night has your convinced Martinez is the problem?

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Top 10 NFL-Tacklers    Passes Defensed     Interceptions

Joe Schobert                          9                                4

Luke Kuechly                         10                               2

Corey Littleton                        8                                2

Jordan Hicks                          6                                3

KJ Wright                                8                                1

Budda Baker                           6                                0

Bobby Wagner                        4                                0

Jaylon Smith                           3                                0

Zach Cunningham                 1                                 0

Blake Martinez                      0                                 0

Among the other NFC playoff competitors, Eric Kendricks is credited with 12 Passes Defensed for Minnesota, Fred Warner in SF has 6 PD, and Demario Davis in NO has 9 PD and a pick.

 

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