Lamar Jackson

[TecmoSuperJoe]

42 minutes ago, N4L said:

I am double spying him then playing man against everyone else in zero coverage. 

The TEs get guarded like everyoneone else, by a defender in man coverage. Would be combination of a SS and good coverage LBs

Also, my second spy, the FS playing 7ish yards off the LOS would be looking to undercut routes deeper than he is. He wouldn't drop and get depth and wouldn't stray too much to either side until Lamar committed to run/rolled out to one side 

I don't see why that's a problem if they decide to run the ball. 

When Blane gabbert took over as the starter, there was a leak from the coaching staff that said the amount of film Blane was watching at home was 'infinately more' than what kaep was watching because kaep wasn't watching ANY film at home. ZERO

The tablets provided by the team track what you watch, how many times you watch it, what time you watch it. He wasn't studying at home and he never learned to read a defense. Do you dispute the last part? 

Again, let's not turn this thread into a kaep thread, but Lamar made more progress as a passer in one off-season than kaep did in his entire career. His mechanics got worse as he lost flexibility (due to the power lifting). Lamar's mechanics have improved dramatically. 

True, I guess you were following him around all day, and knew his routine. You were in the meetings, and all that jazz. You had his tablet right? You watched him as he slept? Showered? 

He wasn't good at reading defenses. Doesn't mean he didn't put in the time and effort and try to learn (as a lot of players do, but still suck). But I guess those ideas are mutually exclusive, because logic.

Right, I'll just leave it there. If someone still believes that nutty narrative after all these years without a substantial amount of evidence of back it up (and I'm not talking about quotes from salty players like Crabtree or even former players like Romanokwski or Rodney Harrison that weren't with the organization) then that person can't be helped. "But, but the leaks said!!!" So glad the "leaks" BS died when Lynch and Shanahan were hired. Completely made the fan base paranoid. BTW, I like how this narrative of Colin being a slacker never existed until the 49ers conveniently became the NFL's doormat again in 2015. Guess he was just fooling everyone all those years, or the coaches didn't care because the 49ers were winning. Aye.

Whatever. I'm out. 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by PapaShogun

[Danand]

9 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

He has to adjust, last year he took some big hits, and this year he is as well, not as many, he cant play this way forever

This should be the concern more with Deshaun Watson than with Lamar Jackson.

[Broncofan]

Honestly, the best way to limit Lamar is to play the long game - and hire Greg Roman to be a HC somewhere else.

Nothing against Lamar - his talent is real. But Roman's fit a scheme that is not only playing to Lamar's strengths - but also adding in layers of complexity and adaptation to what the D's are trying to do.    Contrast that to Mornhinweg, who literally put in the same game plan and play calls when playing the same team less than a month apart.

And as others mentioned - nothing lasts forever.   Lamar won't be this great.  But until then, enjoy it while it lasts.  Could be until next season, or as long as Roman-Lamar are a thing.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Broncofan

[Danand]

9 hours ago, NYJets4716 said:

The 2018 QB draft class is turning out to being pretty good.

THing with Jackson is hes 1 injury away from being ineffective (AKA RG3). If he did not have his legs, his game would be considered mediocre. His special traits are his legs, his ability to slice a defense up with his feet. 

Now he may never get injured, he may get injured, that isn't the point. I just have seen very little from Jackson as a passer that would make me believe hes a top tier thrower. I don't carewhat the stats say, hes mostly throwing basic throws that are opened up due to a dominant run game. Jackson won't always have the best OL in football, won't always have Greg Roman. He'll probably be good, but this season probably will never be repeated. And defenses usually catch on in the NFL. All it takes is 1 team to expose and find that solution. 

We shall see if this guy can lead them in the playoffs to the SB. 

Isn't this the deal with any QB? Josh Allen hurts his shoulder and can still throw but doesn't have a cannon anymore. Russel Wilson hurts his leg and can't scramble anymore. Mahomes looked human with an ankle sprain. Injuries is an issue for every QB. If we take the thing away that makes a QB special, well, ofc he is not special anymore.

[N4L]

59 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Sshhh. Watching our Tight Ends torch Lamar's spies is so fun. Dude even wants to bring the FS down near the LOS, you know who will appreciate that .

I'm not talking about trying to have one guy simultaneously spy Lamar while also covering a TE *rolls eyes* 

Ive seen teams pass rushers just try to play contain and try to keep Jackson in the pocket. This doesn't provide any pressure. I'm talking about rushing 4 aggressively, then once your OL engage their blockers, having a delay blitzer come after Lamar knowing that he has help from another player behind him. This let's my first spy be more aggressive in going after him.

If it's executed properly Jackson will dump the ball off or even break a big run before brown would be able to get down the field. 

I will say that yac could be a problem and if Lamar is able to avoid the initial two waves of pressure, and evade the second spy, he's probably going to score a TD lol 

Also, 49ers defensive line is the most athletic defensive line in the history of the NFL, so let's not forget about that part of it 

[Danand]

Regarding the 49'ers Ravens matchup, it will be interesting to see if a team with such a talented and aggressive front 7 will play Lamar more aggressively than we have seen other teams. As some of the 49'er fans already suggested, crowding the line of scrimmage in an attempt to overwhelm the Ravens at the point of attack might be a formular - I don't think we have seen a team try it so far.

The Dolphins tried to be aggressive and make Lamar throw, but they are nowhere the team or have the talent the 49'ers do this year. 

As some Ravens fans mentioned, playing the Ravens with crowding the line of scrimmage could help create a big run due to Romans scheme and our usage of multiple moving pieces from our tight ends and fullback. It will be interesting to see the 49'ers approach on defense.

 

[Danand]

3 minutes ago, N4L said:

I'm not talking about trying to have one guy simultaneously spy Lamar while also covering a TE *rolls eyes* 

Ive seen teams pass rushers just try to play contain and try to keep Jackson in the pocket. This doesn't provide any pressure. I'm talking about rushing 4 aggressively, then once your OL engage their blockers, having a delay blitzer come after Lamar knowing that he has help from another player behind him. This let's my first spy be more aggressive in going after him.

If it's executed properly Jackson will dump the ball off or even break a big run before brown would be able to get down the field. 

I will say that yac could be a problem and if Lamar is able to avoid the initial two waves of pressure, and evade the second spy, he's probably going to score a TD lol 

Also, 49ers defensive line is the most athletic defensive line in the history of the NFL, so let's not forget about that part of it 

The bolded part is what I thought the Texans would have/should have done. They have inside linebackers who are great working downhill but not so much to the sides. Instead the Texans decided to contain rush with 4 wich left Lamar with too much time in the pocket.

Too many fans still think that you want him in the pocket throwing, which is not correct. You want him on the move trying to throw while on the move - obviously more to his left side than his right side, but throwing on roll outs is where he is less effective than from the pocket.

[DreamKid]

3 minutes ago, N4L said:

I'm not talking about trying to have one guy simultaneously spy Lamar while also covering a TE *rolls eyes* 

Ive seen teams pass rushers just try to play contain and try to keep Jackson in the pocket. This doesn't provide any pressure. I'm talking about rushing 4 aggressively, then once your OL engage their blockers, having a delay blitzer come after Lamar knowing that he has help from another player behind him. This let's my first spy be more aggressive in going after him.

If it's executed properly Jackson will dump the ball off or even break a big run before brown would be able to get down the field. 

I will say that yac could be a problem and if Lamar is able to avoid the initial two waves of pressure, and evade the second spy, he's probably going to score a TD lol 

Also, 49ers defensive line is the most athletic defensive line in the history of the NFL, so let's not forget about that part of it 

Do you really think Lamar has only faced a contain rush from fronts, and ones never with any blitzers? The 49ers aren't going to roll out any defense he hasn't seen before. Lamar can be limited like any QB. There isn't some specific/magic defensive strategy lingering out there that's going to get it done though. He's seen every look possible. In game and practicing against the Ravens' D who have the highest blitz rate in the league along with top flight DBs. 

Unless your DL can completely overwhelm and disrupt plays quickly, it's a simple pick your poison battle with Lamar and it comes down to which side executes better. I'm guessing the Niners are hoping the former happens and their All-Pro unit takes the Ravens' OL to task. We'll see. Don't see them drastically changing anything though.

[N4L]

1 hour ago, PapaShogun said:

True, I guess you were following him around all day, and knew his routine. You were in the meetings, and all that jazz. You had his tablet right? You watched him as he slept? Showered?

Ah, the ole' YoU DiDnT WaTcH ThE gUy ShOwEr argument. Should have thought about that before posting. 

When a guy makes zero progress on the mental side of it, then I hear that he isn't watching film at home, I'm going to believe it because it fits a pattern with other data points. 

1 hour ago, PapaShogun said:

He wasn't good at reading defenses. Doesn't mean he didn't put in the time and effort and try to learn (as a lot of players do, but still suck). But I guess those ideas are mutually exclusive, because logic.

So what you are saying is that he did study, but simply didn't have the mental fortitude to actually accomplish it? Because that would imply his issues were absolutely mental.

It does not appear at this current juncture that Lamar has that particular predicament because he has actually improved his passing ability year over year. His decision making and ability to go through reads is what has separated him from other running qbs so far.

That's the whole point I am making: based on what we have seen, Lamar has been doing his homework, and has actually been able to apply it on the field. Other guys havent made the mental progress that he has made. 

Teams will absolutely adjust, but the growth we have seen from him this year gives credence to the notion that he will be able to adapt down the road as well 

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

I like how this narrative of Colin being a slacker never existed until the 49ers conveniently became the NFL's doormat again in 2015.

Sometimes these things take time to come out. Harbaugh and company HATED the media and did everything in their power to release as little info as possible. No surprise we didn't hear anything about this sort of thing until after Jim harbaugh left. It wasn't some big conspiracy to get kaep ran out of town or something, he started for us again the following season. 

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

So glad the "leaks" BS died when Lynch and Shanahan were hired

Same

[N4L]

Double post 

Edited November 28, 2019 by N4L

[N4L]

34 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Do you really think Lamar has only faced a contain rush from fronts, and ones never with any blitzers?

No, but I think it's happened more frequently than otherwise and that the majority of teams have not set their pass rushers loose (like I believe/hope the niners will this Sunday) 

13 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

The 49ers aren't going to roll out any defense he hasn't seen before

Know any other wide 9 cover 3 teams in the NFL? I don't believe another team runs our exact defense. 

19 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Lamar can be limited like any QB. There isn't some specific/magic defensive strategy lingering out there that's going to get it done though. He's seen every look possible. In game and practicing against the Ravens' D who have the highest blitz rate in the league along with top flight DBs. 

He hasn't been in the NFL for two full seasons, very possible he hasn't seen every conceivable defensive alignment/play call yet and that someone is going to come up with a wrinkle to put him in an uncomfortable position that frustrates and confuses him ... Just like any other young QB (as you say) 

21 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Unless your DL can completely overwhelm and disrupt plays quickly, it's a simple pick your poison battle with Lamar and it comes down to which side executes better. I'm guessing the Niners are hoping the former happens and their All-Pro unit takes the Ravens' OL to task. We'll see. Don't see them drastically changing anything though

Lamar looked very frustrated during the Cleveland game. They got a lot of pressure on him and made him rush throws. He sailed a lot of passes that day. There was no poison picked. 

Cleveland didn't let him run and they forced him to throw a lot of short passes. I think only like 5 passes that he threw went farther than 10 yards in the air. 

What I am saying is that by stacking the box and by aggressively rushing him in waves, you can A) limit the runs and B) force him to throw the ball quickly. It negates both the deep passing game and the running game. 

 

[DreamKid]

8 minutes ago, N4L said:

What I am saying is that by stacking the box and by aggressively rushing him in waves, you can A) limit the runs and B) force him to throw the ball quickly. It negates both the deep passing game and the running game. 

Cool. I'm saying that strategy is nothing new, and it's a tactic he's encountered frequently this season. Jackson is by no means infallible or unstoppable, but he's also not one 'wrinkle' away from collapse or failure either. The Browns' game wasn't even his worst outing this season. Banking on that team showing up is setting yourself up for a colossal let down. Lamar and his game is drawing a lot of attention, but this match up is all about Jimmy G. Odds are this Ravens' offense continues to roll, and unless Jimmy can pull out 30+...the Niners are going to lose. 

[NYJets4716]

20 hours ago, tyler735 said:

Unless I'm forgetting someone so far only 1 QB has looked good from that draft. Maybe Mayfield, Allen, and Darnold elevate their game though going forward, but still too early to tell if they are going to be franchise QB's for their teams.

Not really. I would say Mayfield, Allen, and Darnold have all flashed. I've seen enough from Darnold to know hes good. Hes battled adversity all season, playing behind the worst OL in football with tons of injuries. Pressured more than any QB in football, no run game to lean on, a HC that seemed lost at times. Yet he marches into the office takes control of the offense as a 22 yr old and plays elite football making throws not many can and wins 3 straight on a bad football team, making the team believe. The Jets winning is usually because Darnold carries them, once they actually give him a OL and some pieces to work with and he matures more, its gonna be fun to watch. Darnold is like 4-1 when he plays with Beachum, all he needs is a little time and he can pick apart defense. I know Joe Douglas is going to address the OL this offseason, I am not worried about that. 

Baker Mayfield after his early season struggles is starting to come around, hes playing much better and throws a nice ball. I think hes the man in Cleveland and will be fine, even if he was a bit overrated after his rookie season. 

Josh Allen I am not that big of a fan of, I believe hes being carried by a great team. Has a excellent OL giving him plenty of time, great run game, and great defense. It seems more like the Bills play to have Allen not lose them games as in the beginning of the year when they asked more he was turning it over non stop. I get a Mitchell Trubisky vibe with Allen. But he is talented and has improved from year 1 to year 2. 

The only QB that has looked bad is Josh Rosen from that class.  

[Hunter2_1]

On 27/11/2019 at 7:20 PM, lolsurebro said:

So, I watched the Rams/Ravens game and it was particularly interesting to see how Lamars run threat altered the Rams' defense.

It looked like most of the night, the Rams were running zone coverage. Which seemed to allow a TE to cut across the field and get between two defenders with 3-5 yards on either side, quite frequently. And to stop Donald, the Ravens double teamed him all night long (which is what everyone does against Donald.)

It really seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario when playing the Ravens. If you run man-to-man, Lamar/Ingram is going to run it, and hard at that. The o-line seems really good about opening things up. So if you run zone, you're giving up short passes to huge TE who can break 1 defender tackles and pick up 5-15 yards a throw.

For all of those out there that are playbook-minded, how do you stop their attack? I keep seeing people say he will get figured out but nobody will explain anything beyond that.

Most importantly; none of us are going to know anything compared to NFL DCs or coaches.

But it most likely has to be something like winning your man-coverage, winning the trench battle with their OL and then having individual responsibilities on when Lamar runs. Whether that's through strategic pass rushing and shedding (for the love of god stop rushing PAST him), or spies or something. and you MUST tackle well.

But, DCs probably believe they know HOW to, it's just whether they can or have the troops for it.

[Hunter2_1]

12 hours ago, N4L said:

 

Ive seen teams pass rushers just try to play contain and try to keep Jackson in the pocket. This doesn't provide any pressure. I'm talking about rushing 4 aggressively, then once your OL engage their blockers, having a delay blitzer come after Lamar knowing that he has help from another player behind him. This let's my first spy be more aggressive in going after him.

 

We done this.

 

 

 

 

Sent Roberts/Collins on a kamikaze right into the line. It did have the desired affect of preventing the C or G get into the second level, but the Ravens then adjusted to a more lateral/sweep run gameplan, and because we'd sent the middle backer, we didn't have enough backers (plus ours are big and not as fast) to wash their lateral run away. Maybe you'd have better success with faster LBs

We didn't use a FS spy or anything though, I don't think.

I also say winning your man-to-man, not letting the OL pick their holes and having dedications on Lamar's runs. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Hunter2_1