GDT Week 13: LAC vs DEN: DREW LOCK EDITION

[AnAngryAmerican]

12 hours ago, champ11 said:

What’s your beef with Fangio? Genuinely curious. I respect your fanhood and usually know where you’re coming from but I missed the boat on the Fangio situation 

I don't think he's a good HC. There is a reason why, after 30 something years in the league, or whatever it was, he was always passed over. Why is he our HC, because, in the three years that have followed the Super Bowl 50 win the organization has languished and is generally viewed league-wide as being at least somewhat dysfunctional with a clueless businessman and mysterious trust serving as a de facto owner, a heavy-handed and impatient GM and one of the smallest and least deep front offices in the league. After Kubiak resigned due to health, we had an opportunity to hire respected HC but instead went for someone who no one else in the league was seriously considering for their HC opening. After that disaster we had no choice but to select his successor from the second-tier lot of candidates. Hence we go with Vic but even Ellis/the trust/the FO screwed that up even worse. The plan was Vic as HC/DC, handling all the media/PR/corporate sponsor schmoozing duties but with Kubiak as Asst HC/OC. But Ellis/the trust/Elway screwed that up so we had to go back to the bottom of the barrel to fill out the offensive staff. Now, Scangarello might grow into a competent or even an upper-tier OC (the trend lines are positive) but that does nothing to help us "win now" which is what Ellis/the trust/Elway have been trying to do, over-paying injured and/or washed-up veterans as stop-gaps and mishandling one draft after another. 

More pertinent to Fangio, he's already facing something of an insurrection from his coaching staff and in the locker room (the JLC piece may have been over-blown but as I've maintained, where there is smoke there is fire), yesterday, despite the win, he got called out by his kicker, his kicker, makes poor in-game decisions and has not shown a willingness to adapt. 

I don't think Vic is a bad guy, just like I didn't think Vance was a bad guy, he's charming in that grumpy uncle kind of way, but I do not think he is a NFL caliber head coach. For a year or two, while we attempt to re-stock the roster with talented young players and a build an identity (like they have done in SF) maybe he is fine as a stop-gap. But if this team wants to return to the standard set by Mr. B, he will need to be shown the door and replaced with someone more adept to coach NFL football in 2020s. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

10 hours ago, Broncofan said:

You guys know how much I want the team to try hard...but we're better off losing in the long run, so we can draft higher and get better talent (much easier on Rd2, maybe an elite player).  Nothing's changed there - I hope we lose out but play hard throughout.  In the end, I'd rather have the 4-12 year and a much higher position, than 6-10. 

I do get what you're saying. I knew yesterday the win would push us back a few slots in the draft but upon checking Tankathon this morning, we dropped from the No. 5 overall pick to No. 11, that's a massive talent differential. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

BTW this should send a huge red flag to Ellis & Elway - nearly 20K no shows.  Wow.
 

 

 

Pathetic. Even with the article Klis had shine Ellis' apple with the "Credit the Broncos for announcing the no-show number. They are the only NFL team that engages in this practice of transparency."

[champ11]

36 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don't think he's a good HC. There is a reason why, after 30 something years in the league, or whatever it was, he was always passed over. Why is he our HC, because, in the three years that have followed the Super Bowl 50 win the organization has languished and is generally viewed league-wide as being at least somewhat dysfunctional with a clueless businessman and mysterious trust serving as a de facto owner, a heavy-handed and impatient GM and one of the smallest and least deep front offices in the league. After Kubiak resigned due to health, we had an opportunity to hire respected HC but instead went for someone who no one else in the league was seriously considering for their HC opening. After that disaster we had no choice but to select his successor from the second-tier lot of candidates. Hence we go with Vic but even Ellis/the trust/the FO screwed that up even worse. The plan was Vic as HC/DC, handling all the media/PR/corporate sponsor schmoozing duties but with Kubiak as Asst HC/OC. But Ellis/the trust/Elway screwed that up so we had to go back to the bottom of the barrel to fill out the offensive staff. Now, Scangarello might grow into a competent or even an upper-tier OC (the trend lines are positive) but that does nothing to help us "win now" which is what Ellis/the trust/Elway have been trying to do, over-paying injured and/or washed-up veterans as stop-gaps and mishandling one draft after another. 

More pertinent to Fangio, he's already facing something of an insurrection from his coaching staff and in the locker room (the JLC piece may have been over-blown but as I've maintained, where there is smoke there is fire), yesterday, despite the win, he got called out by his kicker, his kicker, makes poor in-game decisions and has not shown a willingness to adapt. 

I don't think Vic is a bad guy, just like I didn't think Vance was a bad guy, he's charming in that grumpy uncle kind of way, but I do not think he is a NFL caliber head coach. For a year or two, while we attempt to re-stock the roster with talented young players and a build an identity (like they have done in SF) maybe he is fine as a stop-gap. But if this team wants to return to the standard set by Mr. B, he will need to be shown the door and replaced with someone more adept to coach NFL football in 2020s. 

I generally agree, but as far as issues with the organization go he's pretty far down the list for me. I'm fine with him as a stop-gap "adult in the room" type coach.

I think the defensive performance speaks pretty well to his coaching and it seems like the team has been trying hard and competing despite losing so I'm not sure I buy into that report about him at all. But I don't live in Denver and I've been fairly disconnected this season so I'm not really in tune with the heart of this team. As far as the in-game coaching decisions go - he almost lost the game for us yesterday for sure. Has a lot of room to grow there, but doesn't mean he can't. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

How about Vic throwing Scangarello under the bus today? Ouch. 

Theres no dysfunction in this franchise. No, none at all. 

(It’s on Renck’s Facebook, can’t link now from my phone). 

Edited December 2, 2019 by AnAngryAmerican

[BroncoBruin]

The dysfunction comes from above Fangio, who can't even pick his own staff. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

53 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

The dysfunction comes from above Fangio, who can't even pick his own staff. 

I think Fangio, who admittedly didn’t even bother to prepare for the interview, signed up with the understanding that Kubiak and Munchalk would run the offense while he, and to a lesser extent, Donatell (who the old guard powers that be know from the Shanahan era) ran the defense. Then the Kubiak thing went to hell and Munchalk has to work, and work under, a rookie OC. 

Again, I think Scangarello is trending in the right direction, but with the way the coaching staff debacle went coupled with James, Callahan and Chubb getting hurt, things went off the rails really, really early. 

[germ-x]

I’ve actually liked Fangio so far.  He hasn’t been perfect, but this team comes to play every week.  This team also isn’t that talented and has went through 3 QBs and have been in games they’ve had no business being in.  I don’t know what’s going on behind doors, but this team comes to play each and every week, no doubt about that. 

[copeland]

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why a team wants to pick as high as possible in the the draft, or how it is a huge drop in talent from 5 to 11. You can go back and check the the last 10 drafts, and you would be hard pressed to say the top ten picks are any better than a crap shoot. IMO there are more busts in the top 10, historically, than anywhere else in the draft, especially based on expectations. 

Players I’ve chose are my opinion, tear me apart if you wish. But all support my point. In 2012, (I didnt go back any further) as it has turned out, the best players were picked 9) Luke Kuechly, 10) Stephon Gilmore, and 12) Fletcher Cox. In 2013, the best players where picked 4) Lane Johnson(debatable), and 27) DeAndre Hopkins. In 2014, 5) Khalil Mack, 12) Odell Beckham, 13) Arron Donald, 15) Ryan Shazier, 16) Zack Martin. In 2015, 4) Amari Cooper, 5) Branden Scherff, 13) Andrus Peat, 18) Marcus Peters.  From 2016 on, to early for me to say, but more of the same song and dance. Also I know off hand JJ Watt was picked 11th, Earl Thomas was picked 14th, and Clay Mathews was picked 26th. There are definitely other good players selected in the above drafts, don’t get me wrong. But there are a ton of players picked in the top ten in those drafts, that their respective GMs would like to either forget about, or had much higher expectations for. 
To me, it comes down to picking the right player, and having a sh*tload of luck to go along with it. I say win as many games as possible.

[Cutler06]

1 hour ago, copeland said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why a team wants to pick as high as possible in the the draft, or how it is a huge drop in talent from 5 to 11. You can go back and check the the last 10 drafts, and you would be hard pressed to say the top ten picks are any better than a crap shoot. IMO there are more busts in the top 10, historically, than anywhere else in the draft, especially based on expectations. 

Players I’ve chose are my opinion, tear me apart if you wish. But all support my point. In 2012, (I didnt go back any further) as it has turned out, the best players were picked 9) Luke Kuechly, 10) Stephon Gilmore, and 12) Fletcher Cox. In 2013, the best players where picked 4) Lane Johnson(debatable), and 27) DeAndre Hopkins. In 2014, 5) Khalil Mack, 12) Odell Beckham, 13) Arron Donald, 15) Ryan Shazier, 16) Zack Martin. In 2015, 4) Amari Cooper, 5) Branden Scherff, 13) Andrus Peat, 18) Marcus Peters.  From 2016 on, to early for me to say, but more of the same song and dance. Also I know off hand JJ Watt was picked 11th, Earl Thomas was picked 14th, and Clay Mathews was picked 26th. There are definitely other good players selected in the above drafts, don’t get me wrong. But there are a ton of players picked in the top ten in those drafts, that their respective GMs would like to either forget about, or had much higher expectations for. 
To me, it comes down to picking the right player, and having a sh*tload of luck to go along with it. I say win as many games as possible.

Clearly you have a good point, but add this into the reasoning you requested

 

In the drafts where Elway has selected beyond the 20th pick, his draft look like this, starting in 2013

2013  DT Sylvester Williams (28)

2014 CB Bradley Roby (31)

2015 DE Shane Ray (23)

2016 QB Paxton Lynch (26)

2017 OT Garrett Bowles (20)

Notice, not ONE of Elway's picks in that time frame in that draft area is still on this team ? Now granted the past two drafts seem to have had a change in philosophies but better opportunities with better talent choices may halp thaty endeavor, which we do have to make up for. We're not in the position to select BPA and we all know we have to continue to have good drafts to recover from previous failures. Agreed with picking the right player, and having a sh*tload of luck to go along with it but why let Elway walk though a minefield without a metal detector ? He still may screw it up but the higher we get the better chance he doesn't blow up another draft. 

[Broncofan]

3 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Clearly you have a good point, but add this into the reasoning you requested

 

In the drafts where Elway has selected beyond the 20th pick, his draft look like this, starting in 2013

2013  DT Sylvester Williams (28)

2014 CB Bradley Roby (31)

2015 DE Shane Ray (23)

2016 QB Paxton Lynch (26)

2017 OT Garrett Bowles (20)

Notice, not ONE of Elway's picks in that time frame in that draft area is still on this team ? Now granted the past two drafts seem to have had a change in philosophies but better opportunities with better talent choices may halp thaty endeavor, which we do have to make up for. We're not in the position to select BPA and we all know we have to continue to have good drafts to recover from previous failures. Agreed with picking the right player, and having a sh*tload of luck to go along with it but why let Elway walk though a minefield without a metal detector ? He still may screw it up but the higher we get the better chance he doesn't blow up another draft. 

And when you look at Rd 2/3, the differences become even more pronounced.   Zero coincidence that our early position in 2018-9 allowed us to get massive value back Rd2.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Broncofan

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

2013  DT Sylvester Williams (28)

2014 CB Bradley Roby (31)

2015 DE Shane Ray (23)

2016 QB Paxton Lynch (26)

2017 OT Garrett Bowles (20)

Notice, not ONE of Elway's picks in that time frame in that draft area is still on this team ?

Roby should still be on this team. Letting him walk for a 10/1 deal was silly IMO.

[jolly red giant]

On 12/2/2019 at 5:06 PM, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don't think he's a good HC. There is a reason why, after 30 something years in the league, or whatever it was, he was always passed over. Why is he our HC, because, in the three years that have followed the Super Bowl 50 win the organization has languished and is generally viewed league-wide as being at least somewhat dysfunctional with a clueless businessman and mysterious trust serving as a de facto owner, a heavy-handed and impatient GM and one of the smallest and least deep front offices in the league. After Kubiak resigned due to health, we had an opportunity to hire respected HC but instead went for someone who no one else in the league was seriously considering for their HC opening. After that disaster we had no choice but to select his successor from the second-tier lot of candidates. Hence we go with Vic but even Ellis/the trust/the FO screwed that up even worse. The plan was Vic as HC/DC, handling all the media/PR/corporate sponsor schmoozing duties but with Kubiak as Asst HC/OC. But Ellis/the trust/Elway screwed that up so we had to go back to the bottom of the barrel to fill out the offensive staff. Now, Scangarello might grow into a competent or even an upper-tier OC (the trend lines are positive) but that does nothing to help us "win now" which is what Ellis/the trust/Elway have been trying to do, over-paying injured and/or washed-up veterans as stop-gaps and mishandling one draft after another. 

More pertinent to Fangio, he's already facing something of an insurrection from his coaching staff and in the locker room (the JLC piece may have been over-blown but as I've maintained, where there is smoke there is fire), yesterday, despite the win, he got called out by his kicker, his kicker, makes poor in-game decisions and has not shown a willingness to adapt. 

I don't think Vic is a bad guy, just like I didn't think Vance was a bad guy, he's charming in that grumpy uncle kind of way, but I do not think he is a NFL caliber head coach. For a year or two, while we attempt to re-stock the roster with talented young players and a build an identity (like they have done in SF) maybe he is fine as a stop-gap. But if this team wants to return to the standard set by Mr. B, he will need to be shown the door and replaced with someone more adept to coach NFL football in 2020s. 

I get that you don't like Fangio - but you know as well as I do that the real problem starts with Ellis and then travels through Elway.

I would be surprised if there wasn't some friction within the Broncos camp - they are 4-8 and potentially could be 6-6 or better with a few odd plays here and there. We have no idea how well Fangio is performing within the organisation - anymore than we know how Scangs is doing. In terms of play - the defence, despite its obvious limitations now, is still playing to a high standard and Fangio should get credit for that. The offence has been a lot more hit and miss - and I suspect that this is because 1. the lack of talent - and 2. Scangs learning how to be an OC. I am sure there are times when Fangio the DC is scratching his head when the OC calls a play - but as HC he needs to work with his staff. 

Now - is Fangio a HC - only time will tell - I do not think that 12 games into what even Elway now accepts is a major rebuild is enough to make that decision. I certainly hope that he is - I would hate to see another bloody coaching change in the next year or two - that just puts off progress for another couple of years (and I am pushing on in years now so I want to see wins asap). I don't have a problem with a healthy tension between coaches - it can help the competitive spirit and get the brain working. They don't have to like one another - they have to be able to work together. However - a lot of this comes from the top - Ellis and Elway to Fangio and the coordinators to the rest of the staff and then to the players - unfortunately, given the record of Ellis, I have to say there is a tinge of pessimism in there along with my optimism.

[Broncofan]

BTW - @iLikeDefense, time for a Week 14 GDT.   It's on to Houston... and stop #2 in the Lock developmental tour.

[jolly red giant]

It is worthy noticing that Fangio clarified his comments about the 'kneel' yesterday - not throwing Scangs under the bus - he pointed out that he was asked if he wanted a kneel and he said not - not that the OC called a kneel and he overruled him.