lolsurebro Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 15 hours ago, jrry32 said: How anyone doesn't see that starting the "safer option" over a rookie who has shown ability on a team going nowhere is a bad move long term is beyond me. It's quite simple to understand. If Minshew were a first rounder, nobody would seriously entertain the thought. The only reason you start a middling bridge QB is if your rookie isn't ready or you're a contender. Neither apply/applied to this situation. Disingenuous to call Foles a safer option to some degree don't you think? Have you seen his post-season stats? They're pretty incredible. Might be more accurate to call him a "proven option." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drew39k Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 45 minutes ago, lolsurebro said: Disingenuous to call Foles a safer option to some degree don't you think? Have you seen his post-season stats? They're pretty incredible. Might be more accurate to call him a "proven option." I'm not sure I'd say "proven". You could argue that maybe theres a better baseline for expectations, but I'm not going to call the guy proven when he has had so much failure during his career. He played well on some very strong philly teams and that's about it. He has never really proven to stay healthy either. Starting the stache is the right choice. The team isnt winning anyway. Play minshew and and figure out if he has enough to be a starter. Depending on what he does plus next seasons training camp you can better evaluate whether Foles or minshew should be the starter next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 17 hours ago, jrry32 said: The only reason you start a middling bridge QB is if your rookie isn't ready or you're a contender. Neither apply/applied to this situation. Gardner Minshew is not ready. Full stop. It's not a coincidence that Minshew started to wilt once game film was out there - and it's not a coincidence that his worst game as a pro was against the first team he's had to play a second time in the Texans. The Texans knew what Minshew liked to do from their first game and they game planned for that and took it away, and Minshew collapsed. A vet QB adjusts mid game, Minshew couldn't - that's what you'd expect from a rookie QB, the mental game is exponentially greater at this level. Film is out there, countermeasures were drawn up and Minshew couldn't counterpunch accordingly. Perhaps that's on the coaching staff, but it's something you can't continue to rely on if you're out there trying to win a division title. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 13 hours ago, ET80 said: Gardner Minshew is not ready. Full stop. It's not a coincidence that Minshew started to wilt once game film was out there - and it's not a coincidence that his worst game as a pro was against the first team he's had to play a second time in the Texans. The Texans knew what Minshew liked to do from their first game and they game planned for that and took it away, and Minshew collapsed. A vet QB adjusts mid game, Minshew couldn't - that's what you'd expect from a rookie QB, the mental game is exponentially greater at this level. Film is out there, countermeasures were drawn up and Minshew couldn't counterpunch accordingly. Perhaps that's on the coaching staff, but it's something you can't continue to rely on if you're out there trying to win a division title. Gardner Minshew is ready. Full stop. And the entire point of playing him is to give him a chance to adapt to how team's have adapted to him. If he can't, he's not your guy. If he can, he's worth sticking with for another year. The Jaguars weren't going to win a division title. They weren't going anywhere. I'm not going to live in fantasy land like some of y'all. 14 hours ago, lolsurebro said: Disingenuous to call Foles a safer option to some degree don't you think? Have you seen his post-season stats? They're pretty incredible. Might be more accurate to call him a "proven option." Have you seen his regular season stats? They're pretty mediocre. Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco also played well in the post-season. The only thing "proven" about Nick Foles is that he's not a long-term starter or a franchise QB. So no, it wasn't disingenuous for me to call him the "safer option." If anything, it was generous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 18 hours ago, ET80 said: Gardner Minshew is not ready. Full stop. It's not a coincidence that Minshew started to wilt once game film was out there - and it's not a coincidence that his worst game as a pro was against the first team he's had to play a second time in the Texans. The Texans knew what Minshew liked to do from their first game and they game planned for that and took it away, and Minshew collapsed. A vet QB adjusts mid game, Minshew couldn't - that's what you'd expect from a rookie QB, the mental game is exponentially greater at this level. Film is out there, countermeasures were drawn up and Minshew couldn't counterpunch accordingly. Perhaps that's on the coaching staff, but it's something you can't continue to rely on if you're out there trying to win a division title. So because teams took away his escape routes and force him to stay behind one of the leagues worst OLs, that’s somehow Minshews fault? Very few QBs would thrive in the Jags situation this year. They are awful up front, couldn’t stop the run, had a fractured locker room and front office. Minshew was one of about five reasons for optimism the entire season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 5 hours ago, jrry32 said: The Jaguars weren't going to win a division title. They weren't going anywhere. I'm not going to live in fantasy land like some of y'all. You really don't follow the AFCS, do you? It's virtually a coin flip every single year. Once Blake Bortles (and Andrew Luck and JJ Watt to a lesser extent) were out of the equation, it was anyone's ballgame at 4-5. Trying to state otherwise is ignoring how this division plays out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 29 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said: So because teams took away his escape routes and force him to stay behind one of the leagues worst OLs, that’s somehow Minshews fault? I didn't say that - I said he didn't adapt and when you're in the middle of a division race (which the Jags were in at the time) you lean towards the stable play over the risky play - which is exactly what Nick Foles was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ET80 said: I didn't say that - I said he didn't adapt and when you're in the middle of a division race (which the Jags were in at the time) you lean towards the stable play over the risky play - which is exactly what Nick Foles was. The guy is a rookie. What was he suppose to do to adapt. He’d already adapted behind a bad line by escaping the pocket and making plays on the run. You can either make plays inside or outside the pocket. Once teams started spying him, he had no options in the passing game. The solution isn’t finding a different rookie QB that will he faced with the same horrible circumstances...it’s blocking better up front and perhaps finding a TE that is roster worthy that can allow Minshew to get rid of the ball quicker. I highly doubt any QB from the 2020 draft class would do considerably better under the circumstances. Change the front office...get players who buy in....get improved OL play...and get a roster worthy TE. That’s the winning solution for any QB in Jacksonville. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said: The guy is a rookie. What was he suppose to do to adapt. He’d already adapted behind a bad line by escaping the pocket and making plays on the run. You can either make plays inside or outside the pocket. Once teams started spying him, he had no options in the passing game. The solution isn’t finding a different rookie QB that will he faced with the same horrible circumstances...it’s blocking better up front and perhaps finding a TE that is roster worthy that can allow Minshew to get rid of the ball quicker. I highly doubt any QB from the 2020 draft class would do considerably better under the circumstances. Change the front office...get players who buy in....get improved OL play...and get a roster worthy TE. That’s the winning solution for any QB in Jacksonville. Once O'Shaugnessy went out that actually severely hampered the offense, especially in the redzone. Not that JOS is even that good, but he actually looked like a competent TE out there. It went a long way, especially for a rookie QB. Seems like people don't understand just how awful this offense has been outside of Minshew, Fournette, and Chark for the most part. Dede is ok but even that interception in the end zone for Minshew popped right off his hands last week. He hasn't been consistent at all either. Edited December 7, 2019 by .Buzz 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRocket Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, .Buzz said: Once O'Shaugnessy went out that actually severely hampered the offense, especially in the redzone. Not that JOS is even that good, but he actually looked like a competent TE out there. It went a long way, especially for a rookie QB. Seems like people don't understand just how awful this offense has been outside of Minshew, Fournette, and Chark for the most part. Dede is ok but even that interception in the end zone for Minshew popped right off his hands last week. He hasn't been consistent at all either. I totally agree. O'Shaughnessy was stepping up and looked to be the third option in the passing game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 24 minutes ago, HoboRocket said: I totally agree. O'Shaughnessy was stepping up and looked to be the third option in the passing game. Yep, he was a guy Minshew looked to pretty consistently. I think Ebron via FA (not a huge fan but he'd be a solid vet option) to go along with JOS and hopefully our 3rd round pick Josh Oliver who's been hurt this year would make a lot of sense at TE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 2 hours ago, sammymvpknight said: The guy is a rookie. What was he suppose to do to adapt. He’d already adapted behind a bad line by escaping the pocket and making plays on the run. You can either make plays inside or outside the pocket. Once teams started spying him, he had no options in the passing game. The solution isn’t finding a different rookie QB that will he faced with the same horrible circumstances...it’s blocking better up front and perhaps finding a TE that is roster worthy that can allow Minshew to get rid of the ball quicker. I highly doubt any QB from the 2020 draft class would do considerably better under the circumstances. Change the front office...get players who buy in....get improved OL play...and get a roster worthy TE. That’s the winning solution for any QB in Jacksonville. I think you and I are arguing different points: - What you're saying here makes sense, under the circumstances of the Jags are packing it in and evaluating their efforts for 2020 while allowing a promising rookie "learn on the job" so to speak. - My argument is at the time the Jags switched from Minshew to Foles (after the London game) the Jaguars were still in the hunt for the AFCS, and going to Foles was about furthering that aim. Sure, Foles isn't exciting or have much upside in terms of learning anything; He's a "finished product" in that sense, right, wrong or indifferent. You sacrificed the upside for the floor Foles brought to the table, in a belief that he'd be a game manager who can win, and the rest of the division would do what it usually does - cough up leads. Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 25 minutes ago, ET80 said: I think you and I are arguing different points: - What you're saying here makes sense, under the circumstances of the Jags are packing it in and evaluating their efforts for 2020 while allowing a promising rookie "learn on the job" so to speak. - My argument is at the time the Jags switched from Minshew to Foles (after the London game) the Jaguars were still in the hunt for the AFCS, and going to Foles was about furthering that aim. Sure, Foles isn't exciting or have much upside in terms of learning anything; He's a "finished product" in that sense, right, wrong or indifferent. You sacrificed the upside for the floor Foles brought to the table, in a belief that he'd be a game manager who can win, and the rest of the division would do what it usually does - cough up leads. Make sense? I think I may have taken that post out of context without understanding the point you were trying to make in previous posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said: I think I may have taken that post out of context without understanding the point you were trying to make in previous posts. It's been a strange few days of arguing. Up is down, left is right, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinderFournette Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 On 12/6/2019 at 12:39 PM, lolsurebro said: Disingenuous to call Foles a safer option to some degree don't you think? Have you seen his post-season stats? They're pretty incredible. Might be more accurate to call him a "proven option." im an undefeated QB in the Post-season. yes im not an NFL QB but yet im still undefeated. look at the Track record at all his places. compar e that with minshews limited sample size. \ these are the abbreviated stats from Pro-football-reference for the regular season which means more then playoffs cuz if u dont win the regular season u dont have a chance to play in the playoffs. Quote Foles: 50 games played 48 starts 61.9 completion Percentage. 71TD 35INT 7 yards per attempt 205.2 yards per game 6.26 net yards per pass attempt 8 4th quarter comebacks 10 game winning drives. Quote Minshew 10 games player 8 starts 61.1 completion percentage 14tds 5ints 7.3 yards per attempt 243.2 yards per game 6.43 net yards per pass attempt 2 4th quarter comebacks 2 Game winning drives. outside .8 completion percentage it seems to me Minshew is the superior QB choice as a 6th round ROOKIE. even when Foles makes the playoffs the only numbers that increases significant is his completion percentage (its averaged out to 68.1 but last year he was at around 60.6 which was worse then regular season. and Yards per game(272.7 but that is skewed massively by his 2017 playoffs(his other 2 years in playoffs was 195 and 233.5 yards per game). His TD to INT ratio stayed the same 11-5 and that number is skewed cuz of last years 4 ints however the td percentage increases to 5.2 from 4.2 but his INT percentage also increases to 2.4 from 2.1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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