taylor made Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 45 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Would you take Kittle in the top 10, full hindsight? Or a healthy Gronk? Gonzo? The positional value is lower for sure, but the trigger can/should still get pulled if you think they’re going to be be absolutely dominant tight ends. Maybe, I would in hindsight, but what does that exactly prove? You can name a couple examples of the elite of the elite tight ends that weren't even drafted in the first round. Those guys are exceptions. That's like saying well this guy hit the Powerball lottery let me see if I can with a lot more money. I can name a lot more round 1st round tight ends that proved they weren't worth their draft status than you can name ones that actually proved their value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, lavar703 said: How was he a reach? Nearly everyone had this guy in the top 10 come draft day. They didn’t reach he just had a rough season. Yeah, a few people felt as if he was the best offensive player in the draft - anyone questioning this is really revising history on that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, taylor made said: Maybe, I would in hindsight, but what does that exactly prove? You can name a couple examples of the elite of the elite tight ends that weren't even drafted in the first round. Those guys are exceptions. That's like saying well this guy hit the Powerball lottery let me see if I can with a lot more money. I can name a lot more round 1st round tight ends that proved they weren't worth their draft status than you can name ones that actually proved their value. You can say that about any position. There are more busts than hits at any position. Bringing up examples shows that “you don’t take tight ends in the first round” is a bit of an overstatement. You don’t take punters in the first round. Or long snappers. Or fullbacks. Tight ends have lower positional value than others but they’re not untouchable in the first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarok Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I'd rather have Irv Smith in the mid-2nd than Hock in the top ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoundrel Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 They should have picked Ed Oliver 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
braylon Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Average TEs may be very replaceable and unimportant.. But elite TEs are absolute game changers and offer so much flexibility for the offense. When teams are drafting a TE in the first round they are obviously expecting that. I'm totally fine with teams taking TEs in the first, provided they have an elite skillset. I don't really follow prospects leading up to the draft anymore, but as far as I know Hockensen has that skillset. He was also projected to go pretty dang high in the draft. People stating the Lions reached are letting this season impact their opinion, which is unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killashaw Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 11 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: Would you take Kittle in the top 10, full hindsight? Or a healthy Gronk? Gonzo? The positional value is lower for sure, but the trigger can/should still get pulled if you think they’re going to be be absolutely dominant tight ends. The thing is, history has proven that TE's need time to develop before they get to a level where they are really impactful. By that time, their rookie contract is almost over and you have to pay them. Might as well pay some TE in FA and use your high draft pick on someone who has way more impact on his cheap rookie deal. That being said, some TE's are worth a first round pick, and Hockenson is definitely one of them in terms of talent. But I mean, if you could have picked Oliver with that pick it's crazy to take Hockenson over him. Thanks again Lions, greetings from a Bills fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nastradamus Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 16 hours ago, TimeForChange said: Given how often the lions have high first round picks you would think they would have more success. Since 2000-Stafford, Johnson...Backus (kinda) Hockenson was a reach to begin with and has been absent outside his first game. I know it takes years sometimes for a TE to develop but we’ve already drafted 2 first round TEs that have busted. Its exhausting being a Lions fan and getting these same ol story players. Decker, Ragnow,Suh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Killashaw said: The thing is, history has proven that TE's need time to develop before they get to a level where they are really impactful. By that time, their rookie contract is almost over and you have to pay them. Might as well pay some TE in FA and use your high draft pick on someone who has way more impact on his cheap rookie deal. That being said, some TE's are worth a first round pick, and Hockenson is definitely one of them in terms of talent. But I mean, if you could have picked Oliver with that pick it's crazy to take Hockenson over him. Thanks again Lions, greetings from a Bills fan I haven't really watched any Bills games but taking Player X over Hockenson has been a discussion we have had in the Lions forum. Obviously Oliver is one of those guys in the discussion. PFF has them both rated in the mid-60's (Oliver and Hock). Are you seeing an impact from Oliver that maybe is translating to other players and he's not being credited for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killashaw Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: I haven't really watched any Bills games but taking Player X over Hockenson has been a discussion we have had in the Lions forum. Obviously Oliver is one of those guys in the discussion. PFF has them both rated in the mid-60's (Oliver and Hock). Are you seeing an impact from Oliver that maybe is translating to other players and he's not being credited for? In terms of this season Oliver has not been the stand out in our defense, but that's more because our defense is just amazing at every position. Oliver got the starting job and still has it, although the last weeks Jordan Philips got a lot of snaps as well instead of Oliver. And that's not because Oliver played bad, it was just that Philips was really playing amazing football. So you might wanna credit Oliver for that In terms of actual helping other players on the pitch, I wouldn't say that he is the main reason why our defense is so good but he's definitely contributing a lot. So yeah, I think his presence on the pitch alone gives other players more room to excel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Killashaw said: In terms of this season Oliver has not been the stand out in our defense, but that's more because our defense is just amazing at every position. Oliver got the starting job and still has it, although the last weeks Jordan Philips got a lot of snaps as well instead of Oliver. And that's not because Oliver played bad, it was just that Philips was really playing amazing football. So you might wanna credit Oliver for that In terms of actual helping other players on the pitch, I wouldn't say that he is the main reason why our defense is so good but he's definitely contributing a lot. So yeah, I think his presence on the pitch alone gives other players more room to excel. I accepted Hock being the pick when it was made because... well, what's the point... it's not like Quinn was going to listen to me and you can't turn the pick back in and take someone else. However, I was strongly against the idea of taking a first round TE and really wanted the Lions to make the Broncos/Steelers trade. I hope that Hock proves people wrong and is a HOF player. He has an uphill battle trying to win over us Lions fans thanks to Eric Ebron and OBJ, Aaron Donald, et al. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom cody Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I still think he'll be good during his career. All the best to him in his recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsujin Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I drafted him late then felt like a genius after Week One. Shoulda traded him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I understand why they took him. They wanted to dominate in the run game and add a mismatch weapon to complement their WR's. I haven't watched the lions enough to know how well it worked with Kerryon Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sryan66611 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I understand why they took him. They wanted to dominate in the run game and add a mismatch weapon to complement their WR's. I haven't watched the lions enough to know how well it worked with Kerryon Johnson. Kerryon did well before he was injured but I don't think it had anything to do with Hock really... TE's are so hard to evaluate. Like the 2017 draft with Howard, Njoku, and Engram all going in the first round. Neither one has made a major impact on their teams. But none of those guys were drafted top 10 although Howard was slated to be a top 10 pick by most. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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