GDT Week 2 - Patriots go to Silverdome!

[Jlowe22]

1 hour ago, mcmurtry86 said:

In a league where the vast majority of coaches are replaceable or worse, Payton is one of the few who stand out as being a step above the average. He and Reid get a lot of criticism (much of it deserved) but I'd definitely take him over 25-28 other coaches in the league.

His biggest failure, other than being saddled with crappy GM's, is he's not a great staff builder

I'd rate Payton average at best at this point.  He has proven to be incapable of fielding even a consistently average defense.  His clock management is garbage, and lately(within the past couple of years), his playcalling has boggled the mind.  

[mcmurtry86]

44 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

I'd rate Payton average at best at this point.  He has proven to be incapable of fielding even a consistently average defense.  His clock management is garbage, and lately(within the past couple of years), his playcalling has boggled the mind.  

So if he's average, which 10 or so coaches would you take over him?

[Jlowe22]

11 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

So if he's average, which 10 or so coaches would you take over him?

For sure:

Bill Belichick

Pete Carrol

Mike Tomlin

andy Reid

Mike McCarthy

Jason Garrett

Mike Zimmer

Arians

Jon harbaugh

 

A few maybes:

ron Rivera

John Fox

Del Rio

 

Some guys I would take personally:

Adam Gase

Dan Quinn

Hue jackson

 

Group of guys I would NOT take over Payton:

Mularkey

Gus Bradley

Jim Caldwell

chuck pagano

marvin lewis 

todd bowles

bill obrien

 

 

 

 

[mcmurtry86]

Garrett and McCarthy are both decidedly below average coaches. Tomlin is badly overrated but at least a solid motivator. As a X's and O's and staff management guy, he's pretty bad. He's been outcoached and outschemed in more big games than he has outcoached someone else. Del Rio was outright bad in Jacksonville. Maybe he's grown and last year was for real with Oakland. But I'd need to see him go head to head with another good coach in the playoffs to really buy into him becoming a solid coach because he got outcoached constantly with the Jaguars

[Khal Guese]

I am a bit curios about the O-Line. Can they repeat the overall good performance?
Is Cameron Jordan exclusive playing on the left side or is he changing spots? If so I hope Solder will hold his ground a little bit better than he did against
KC.

I have a question about the defense. Van Noy got the green dot with Hightower beeing injured. And it seemed that he was a kinda overwhelmed with this duty.
Me question is, why didnt Chung got the green dot? As inbox saftey he should be close enough to the LOS to call plays right?
I havent checked his snap count but I could imagine that its t low for beeing the cpt. of the defense ?

 

[Jlowe22]

24 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Garrett and McCarthy are both decidedly below average coaches. Tomlin is badly overrated but at least a solid motivator. As a X's and O's and staff management guy, he's pretty bad. He's been outcoached and outschemed in more big games than he has outcoached someone else. Del Rio was outright bad in Jacksonville. Maybe he's grown and last year was for real with Oakland. But I'd need to see him go head to head with another good coach in the playoffs to really buy into him becoming a solid coach because he got outcoached constantly with the Jaguars

Garrett and McCarthy would be at the lower end of my list of guys I'd take over Payton, but Tomlin, I don't see how you could legit take Payton over him.  Some of these younger coaches are also probably gonna turn out to be better than Payton.  Del Rio is a solid defensive guy, which looks like Belichick level when you're used to Sean Payton defenses.

Payton deserves credit for getting the most out of Brees and putting him in position to succeed, but since then, his extremely poor decisions have made sure Brees would never see another superbowl.  I think that people who still see Payton as a top coach are giving him too much credit for consistently great offensive production. but even if you give him the benefit of the doubt offensively, his defenses are SO bad, it brings his stock way down.  His defenses have been historically bad, and for long stretches.  All he's ever needed is an average defense, and rarely have we had that in New Orleans.

If you already had a solid defensive staff that Payton would keep his hands out of, he might be a good fit.  Otherwise, I would have absolutely zero faith in Payton's ability to build an NFL caliber defense.  

[mcmurtry86]

52 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Garrett and McCarthy would be at the lower end of my list of guys I'd take over Payton, but Tomlin, I don't see how you could legit take Payton over him.  Some of these younger coaches are also probably gonna turn out to be better than Payton.  Del Rio is a solid defensive guy, which looks like Belichick level when you're used to Sean Payton defenses.

Payton deserves credit for getting the most out of Brees and putting him in position to succeed, but since then, his extremely poor decisions have made sure Brees would never see another superbowl.  I think that people who still see Payton as a top coach are giving him too much credit for consistently great offensive production. but even if you give him the benefit of the doubt offensively, his defenses are SO bad, it brings his stock way down.  His defenses have been historically bad, and for long stretches.  All he's ever needed is an average defense, and rarely have we had that in New Orleans.

If you already had a solid defensive staff that Payton would keep his hands out of, he might be a good fit.  Otherwise, I would have absolutely zero faith in Payton's ability to build an NFL caliber defense.  

Tomlin's is consistently outcoached by every good coach he's gone against. Sometimes, his players bail him out. But he inherited a terrific core, consistently has elite or at least very good players on both sides of the ball and the Steelers continually fall flat in the playoffs. His one Super Bowl run was on the back of the defense Bill Cowher built.

He's a terrible X's and O's and in-game strategy guy and he's completely unable to coach up and develop certain positions. As a Pats fan, I'm glad Pittsburgh is saddled with him because he's a guy who you know is going to be over his head in big games.

I'd put Tomlin solidly in the bottom third of coaches in the league. He benefits from having inherited a franchise QB and having Kevin Colbert put together some solid drafts and snagging Antonio Brown and LeVeon Bell.

Classic example of a guy with a solid W/L record who is completely and utterly mediocre (at best).

[CP3MVP]

5 hours ago, mcmurtry86 said:

In a league where the vast majority of coaches are replaceable or worse, Payton is one of the few who stand out as being a step above the average. He and Reid get a lot of criticism (much of it deserved) but I'd definitely take him over 25-28 other coaches in the league.

His biggest failure, other than being saddled with crappy GM's, is he's not a great staff builder

What has Sean Payton done in the last 4 years to say he's a "step above average" and better than 90% of the NFL head coaches? Because he won a Super Bowl like ten years ago?

 

Now that I think about it, what does Sean Payton do well as a HC? 

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Tomlin's is consistently outcoached by every good coach he's gone against. Sometimes, his players bail him out. But he inherited a terrific core, consistently has elite or at least very good players on both sides of the ball and the Steelers continually fall flat in the playoffs. His one Super Bowl run was on the back of the defense Bill Cowher built.

He's a terrible X's and O's and in-game strategy guy and he's completely unable to coach up and develop certain positions. As a Pats fan, I'm glad Pittsburgh is saddled with him because he's a guy who you know is going to be over his head in big games.

I'd put Tomlin solidly in the bottom third of coaches in the league. He benefits from having inherited a franchise QB and having Kevin Colbert put together some solid drafts and snagging Antonio Brown and LeVeon Bell.

Classic example of a guy with a solid W/L record who is completely and utterly mediocre (at best).

Well 4 of past 5 years, Sean Payton has had horrible defenses, and 3 of those years were historically bad.  Two of those years were, at the time, the worst defenses in NFL history.  The ability for Sean Payton and his staff to develop defensive positions is nonexistent.  He has certain strengths on the offensive side of the ball, but you can't be this bad for this long defensively and be considered a top coach, at least not to me.  Some may rank him higher, but I expect they'd be singing a different tune if they had to suffer through the consecutive years of historically bad defense.

[Jlowe22]

15 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

What has Sean Payton done in the last 4 years to say he's a "step above average" and better than 90% of the NFL head coaches? Because he won a Super Bowl like ten years ago?

 

Now that I think about it, what does Sean Payton do well as a HC? 

He designs great passing plays that his HOF QB executes.  He neglects the running game, special teams, and defense however.  I mean, he keeps a stable of runningbacks, but he then calls silly running plays, like Travaris Cadet twice up the middle, then 3rd down triple reverse to the obvious speedy receiver that gets blown up in the backfield.  I might give him the benefit of the doubt on offense, because Saints consistently top 5 in the league in scoring, yards, 3rd down conversion, red zone % etc, but then defensively he's 32nd, 31st, 32nd, 32nd.

[mcmurtry86]

21 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

What has Sean Payton done in the last 4 years to say he's a "step above average" and better than 90% of the NFL head coaches? Because he won a Super Bowl like ten years ago?

 

Now that I think about it, what does Sean Payton do well as a HC? 

Payton is a brilliant offensive mind. Most NFL head coaches are, at best, good at one side of the ball. Payton is a top 10 offensive mind of the past 30 years. Not Bill Walsh level obviously, but he's up there in terms of his play design, feel for the game, understanding of opponent's defenses and schemes and exploiting matchups. His in game adjustments are very good. He's done well developing offensive talent.

I get the "crap defense" argument against him. His defense does hold him back. But I place a lot of that blame on horrific cap management and personnel decisions and his poor picks (or stubborn loyalty) at defensive coordinator. Pair him up with a solid DC (not an overrated one like Williams) and get him some real talent in that D other than Jordan, and he will win lots of games for you. Both Rob Ryan and Williams put together one year good defenses (4th best and 7th best) but the talent quickly left/declined/got injured. It's not like Payton is incapable of having a good defense.

He's been in New Orleans for over a decade and how many quality defenders have they had? 10 total? You can't pin most of that on Payton. Sure, blame him for not developing certain guys well, but if your GM isn't giving you quality prospects to work with, you're not going to develop good talent. Look at Pete Carroll in New England. Defensive genius (supposedly) but in 3 years with the Patriots almost every single Parcells guy he inherited got worse and almost without exception every rookie that came in failed. Now, Pete Carroll, he of "4th and 2" is considered a great coach despite having elite defenders handed to him by his GM. Despite his failings at developing offensive talent. Despite his failings at finding a offensive coordinator. People routinely credit Carroll as being a top 5 or top 3 coach. Ignoring that the "brilliant defensive" Carroll struggles with in-game defensive adjustments. He's still a top 7 coach IMO but that's a statement of how few good coaches are in the league.

Put it this way. Put Pete Carroll on the 2017 Saints and Payton on the 2017 Seahawks and I bet people are complaining a lot less about Payton and a lot more about Carroll. Carroll is a one-side of the ball wonder whose failures on offense have held his team back despite having elite defenses (historically good defenses even). Payton is a one-side of the ball guy whose failures on defense have held him back despite elite offenses. I see very little separation between those two guys. Just like Andy Reid is a good coach but his failures with clock management have killed him in big games.

 

[mcmurtry86]

21 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

He designs great passing plays that his HOF QB executes.  He neglects the running game, special teams, and defense however.  I mean, he keeps a stable of runningbacks, but he then calls silly running plays, like Travaris Cadet twice up the middle, then 3rd down triple reverse to the obvious speedy receiver that gets blown up in the backfield.  I might give him the benefit of the doubt on offense, because Saints consistently top 5 in the league in scoring, yards, 3rd down conversion, red zone % etc, but then defensively he's 32nd, 31st, 32nd, 32nd.

No point in going back and forth much more since clearly you're not a fan of Payton. But if you really think you'll be better off with a Tomlin/McCarthy/Jarrett as coach, you're in for a rude awakening when Payton ends up being the scapegoat for Mickey Loomis's awful performance as a GM. Payton is the only thing keeping the Saints competitive right now given the complete lack of talent and depth on the roster thanks to years of terrible drafting and veteran personnel moves.

[Jlowe22]

8 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

No point in going back and forth much more since clearly you're not a fan of Payton. But if you really think you'll be better off with a Tomlin/McCarthy/Jarrett as coach, you're in for a rude awakening when Payton ends up being the scapegoat for Mickey Loomis's awful performance as a GM. Payton is the only thing keeping the Saints competitive right now given the complete lack of talent and depth on the roster thanks to years of terrible drafting and veteran personnel moves.

From what I understand, Payton has had control of that since bounty gate.  Now, I personally have no idea exactly who has what power behind closed doors, but it seems probable a superbowl winning coach could get what he asked for.  If Saints were just kinda bad on defense, I may not have a problem.  But like I've said, these defenses are historically bad.  You're saying I wouldn't want a Jason Garrett, or Tomlin, McCarthy, but how much worse could they really do?  Do you think they wouldn't go 7-9 with a HOF QB?  I mean, these Sean Payton teams are 3-13ish at best without Brees, and that's just the truth.  

Don't get me wrong, I'll always respect Payton for how he and Loomis took a dumpster fire franchise and won a superbowl 4 years later.  But eventually, it's time to move on.  Four straight losing seasons just doesn't cut it.   

 

[mcmurtry86]

1 minute ago, Jlowe22 said:

From what I understand, Payton has had control of that since bounty gate.  Now, I personally have no idea exactly who has what power behind closed doors, but it seems probable a superbowl winning coach could get what he asked for.  If Saints were just kinda bad on defense, I may not have a problem.  But like I've said, these defenses are historically bad.  You're saying I wouldn't want a Jason Garrett, or Tomlin, McCarthy, but how much worse could they really do?  Do you think they wouldn't go 7-9 with a HOF QB?  I mean, these Sean Payton teams are 3-13ish at best without Brees, and that's just the truth.  

Don't get me wrong, I'll always respect Payton for how he and Loomis took a dumpster fire franchise and won a superbowl 4 years later.  But eventually, it's time to move on.  Four straight losing seasons just doesn't cut it.   

 

Seems like you're giving most, if not all, of the offensive credit to Brees? Because with a lesser offensive mind, the Saints are a 3-13 team even with Brees. Ignoring, of course, how pivotal Payton has been in making Drew Brees a HOF quality QB.

It's also kind of weird to cite Garrett as a good coach or an equal while holding Payton responsible for a 7-9 record. Garrett has had two winning seasons in his first 7. His defenses below average to outright bad almost every year. His offense has been top five 3 times in 7 years. He's an outright bad coach with absolutely no discernible strengths and his players consistently make braindead decisions at big times of the game.

I'm sure you'll be happy when Payton is gone. But as long as Loomis is there, the Saints are going to be mediocre. Once Payton and Brees are gone, probably in the next 2 years, the Saints are looking at a Jets/Browns-esque situation of no talent and a poor GM.

Lastly, you cite John Harbaugh as a better coach. Harbaugh has a whopping 2 more wins over the past 4 years. Not saying he is or isn't a good or better coach. But the overall record isn't too much different.

[Jlowe22]

4 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Seems like you're giving most, if not all, of the offensive credit to Brees? Because with a lesser offensive mind, the Saints are a 3-13 team even with Brees. Ignoring, of course, how pivotal Payton has been in making Drew Brees a HOF quality QB.

It's also kind of weird to cite Garrett as a good coach or an equal while holding Payton responsible for a 7-9 record. Garrett has had two winning seasons in his first 7. His defenses below average to outright bad almost every year. His offense has been top five 3 times in 7 years. He's an outright bad coach with absolutely no discernible strengths and his players consistently make braindead decisions at big times of the game.

I'm sure you'll be happy when Payton is gone. But as long as Loomis is there, the Saints are going to be mediocre. Once Payton and Brees are gone, probably in the next 2 years, the Saints are looking at a Jets/Browns-esque situation of no talent and a poor GM.

Lastly, you cite John Harbaugh as a better coach. Harbaugh has a whopping 2 more wins over the past 4 years. Not saying he is or isn't a good or better coach. But the overall record isn't too much different.

Yes, I am giving Brees a lot of credit for the offensive success.  QB is an extremely important position.  How many superbowls would Belichick have won without Brady?  McCarthy without Rodgers?  Tomlin without Ben? Sean Payton did help develop Brees, that's certain.  But Brees still reads the defense, audibles, throws accurate passes through tight windows.  It's the same synergistic relationship any other QB had, save for maybe Peyton, who was a breed of his own.  You still don't seem to understand how bad his defenses have been though.  He's had four years to field an average defense, and can barely manage historically bad.  In 2015, our defense gave up 45 TDs, 9 INTs, and had a 116 passer rating against.  It's like we play 2011 Rodgers every single week.

You also must not watch Payton very often.  He makes very poor in game decisions regularly.  He is constantly butting heads with players like Cooks and Graham, Ingram, Peterson.  His clock management skills are extremely suspect.  His timeout usage is terrible.

Also, when discussing Garrett, you neglect the fact that his team has improved drastically during his tenure.  While Sean Payton is going the opposite way.  And Jon Harbaugh, has the incredibly mediocre Joe Flacco running his team.  With an elite QB, he no doubt could have more success.  Flacco has had a few good seasons, and a great postseason, and then mediocre to terrible seasons.

Payton is still living off reputation from his onside kick in the superbowl that, while extremely ballsy, could have easily backfired and cost them the superbowl.  His playcalling skills in general have gotten worse over the years.  Some of that is due to inferior personnel, but he makes the personnel decisions.  

I'm not a fan of Loomis either, he's made some incredibly stupid moves lately.  Although he deserves much credit for putting the pieces together that got us a superbowl, the superbowl was 8 years ago.  

I defended Payton throughout 2014 and 2015, but after 2016 and the first game of 2017 being more of the same, at some point you need to be held accountable.  Payton did a terrible job last week, one of the worse jobs I've seen from him.