VigilantZombie Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Split the Sticks said: Well ya sorta are lol. You said he was third in the race. But whatever. I do agree that DB's don't get this award because fans love sacks. I get why you think that's what I'm saying. The reason though I say he is 3rd in the race is because fans dont vote, its writers, where perception will likely rule and that, imo, puts him on the back end of the top 3. There is 0 doubt that AD is the best overall defensive player in the NFL. 0 doubt Gilmore is the best CB in the league. And imo, 0 doubt Watt has the best stats off all 3. So it's fair to say perception is going to play a major part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 8 hours ago, jrry32 said: BTW, here are the DT numbers. If you look really hard, you can see Aaron Donald all by himself. 8 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: Can you even name 3 people in the front 7 of the Patriots off the top of your head? Watt is the pass rush, which is why he's one of the least double teamed players in the NFL? I sense some non-sense here with this chart, if I'm supposed to believe that the Cowboys have two of the top 5 double teamed edge rushers, and a top 5 double teamed interior DL. My guess is it's just a really low threshold for what they count as a double team, but it's hard to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 8 hours ago, jrry32 said: Few interior rushers can produce pressure at the rate of top edge rushers. And it's not just because of double teams The average % of x the outside rushers were doubled was 19%, the average for the inside rushers was 61%. So it would be kinda silly to say that isn't a major factor in why they don't produce pressure as often. Better evidence would be to show me his pressure rates when singled and lined up inside vs. singled and lined up outside. For him and for pass rushers in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 4 hours ago, 11sanchez11 said: The average % of x the outside rushers were doubled was 19%, the average for the inside rushers was 61%. So it would be kinda silly to say that isn't a major factor in why they don't produce pressure as often. Better evidence would be to show me his pressure rates when singled and lined up inside vs. singled and lined up outside. For him and for pass rushers in general. So you're disputing that interior DLs are at a disadvantage because they have less room to operate? Did you play football growing up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 minute ago, jrry32 said: So you're disputing that interior DLs are at a disadvantage because they have less room to operate? no, them having less room is why they are doubled so often. but if you are simulating them being singled at the same rate as a outside rusher then obviously they would have waayy more room than usual. I'm saying an equal rusher on the inside should do better if they are singled than if they are singled on the outside. 17 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Did you play football growing up? yes but was never a fatty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said: no, them having less room is why they are doubled so often. but if you are simulating them being singled at the same rate as a outside rusher then obviously they would have waayy more room than usual. That's completely wrong. They have significantly less room to operate than outside rushers. Quote I'm saying an equal rusher on the inside should do better if they are singled than if they are singled on the outside. Okay. Provide the data supporting this claim. Edited December 29, 2019 by jrry32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 6 hours ago, sammymvpknight said: Lots of great players but I went with Gilmore who is far and away the best at his position right now I have no issue calling Gilmore the DPoTY though I think it's Watt... But far and away that best at his position. The gap between he and White isn't that big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, jrry32 said: That's completely wrong. They have significantly less room to operate than outside rushers. bruh, obviously. which is why they are doubled 3x as often. but your point was that if he was singled as often blah blah... But if he was singled as often he would have way more room than your average dlineman. 7 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Okay. Provide the data supporting this claim. if anyone has compiled that data I would prob have to pay for it and that's not gonna happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 14 hours ago, TheChancellor said: How is it even arguable that it is not Gilmore? Unless we're not counting him cause he's so good so we are picking among the best of the rest. So if it's obviously Gilmore, why is White not in the running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said: bruh, obviously. which is why they are doubled 3x as often. but your point was that if he was singled as often blah blah... But if he was singled as often he would have way more room than your average dlineman. If DTs were singled, they'd still have significantly less room to operate than edge rushers. It's not disputable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, jrry32 said: If DTs were singled, they'd still have significantly less room to operate than edge rushers. It's not disputable. functionally? yes they could run 30 yards towards the sideline but that isn't going to help much getting to the qb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said: functionally? yes they could run 30 yards towards the sideline but that isn't going to help much getting to the qb Yes, I clearly mean functionally. As an interior DL, unless you're involved in a game, you have the choice of two gaps and a window of roughly two or three yards to operate. Edge rushers have a window of 5 to 12 yards for their two gaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 18 hours ago, jrry32 said: It's both true and obvious. He's producing a comparable amount of pressure while being doubled at five or six times the rate. There is a reason the DT's on whole are doubled more than outside guys. A tackle doesn't have to win per se he can just keep the edge running wide. There is more built in leeway. The QB can also step up. DT's if the win the QB is in trouble. JJ Watt has the highest edge double team rate this year https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1209497612652556289 . The plot for DT's doesn't even start until 44%. Comparing double team rate for DT's vs Edge is just not apples to apples. This isn't meant to be an argument for or against either of them, just a general point of fact that needs to be considered if you are going to talk about double team rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 I honestly don’t know who should win the award now. Gilmores last two performances should definitely lower him. Neither Watt or Donald had a dominant last game, but Watt definitely was a pretty good. His team missed the playoffs but I would probably just give it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childofpudding Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 I think Gilmore's performance today killed his chances. Parker abused him, and it was a crucial game. Still love the guy but he definitely dropped the ball today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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