George Kittle

[DannyB]

3 minutes ago, N4L said:

*video of Niners owning my Packers*

@ET80 I'd like to report a personal attack please.

[ET80]

24 minutes ago, DannyB said:

@ET80 I'd like to report a personal attack please.

So does the Packers secondary.

[Split the Sticks]

5 hours ago, N4L said:

Ertz isnt a good blocker. That alone drops him down a peg. 

Ertz is comparable to kelce and kittle if you are playing fantasy football. On a real football field, his lack of blocking prowess means he isn't the same matchup nightmare that the other guys are. Plus, he's a lot slower than kittle and kelce which means he's less dynamic 

exactly. a TE like that tips his hat to the defense, they know he ain't pass blocking.

[Split the Sticks]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Blocking is huge, especially if they’re high end at both blocking and receiving. It forces the defense to choose how they’re going to cover the TE. Either abuse a LB in coverage or pancake a DB in the run game. A TE that can’t block is essentially a big WR and let’s the other team defend with more ease. It’s why Gronkowski was as great as he was - he was elite at both. 

Yeah, carrying blocking specialists isn’t uncommon but that becomes a tell in the play calling game. It’s like saying a running back who is an elite runner and pass catcher doesn’t hold any value or superiority over a back who is only an elite runner, because teams carry receiving backs on the depth chart. Having a guy like Saquon or McCaffrey beats the hell out of having Nick Chubb + Duke Johnson or James White. 

 

Well put ying yang. That's why I always loved Brian Westbrook. I'm far from an iggles fan but I loved that guys act.

[Jakuvious]

19 hours ago, N4L said:

The longer track record is the only argument you could make, because kittle is a more dynamic receiving threat. He is a better route runner, is a better deep threat, and is better with the ball in his hands. Oh, and he's the superior blocker. 

Kelce is a damn good TE too don't get me wrong, but right now, there isn't a TE in the world who is better than George 

EDIT: but that doesn't make him the greatest TE ever and this thread is dumb for that reason lol 

You're greatly underestimating Kelce as a receiver if you think Kittle is better than him at basically everything in that regard.

Kelce is having a down year (not statistically, but performance wise), so I do think Kittle is the best TE in the league at the moment. But Kelce is an elite YAC TE, route runner, and downfield threat. If Kittle has the edge in any of those regards, it's marginally so. Kittle gets the bump for his blocking, and I'd guess he's probably dropped fewer passes this year (not looking it up, just going off of what I've seen from Kelce in that regard.) But you're kidding yourself if you think Kittle is clearly better at everything.

[Jakuvious]

18 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

I'm a contrarian in this stance. The idea of an all around great TE is oxy-moronic. Its like calling a DE that drops in coverage and has minimal impact in pass coverage all around the best DE.  For RB it works, because its catching and running and 2 very measurable impacts. Who cares if your TE1 is a great blocker. Teams carry 3 TEs for a reason.

Give me the best receiving TEs.

Thats Gates, Gonzo, Winslow, Sharpe.. with Gronk and Kelce. Kittle is making his claim soon to be in that company. 

AFCW is where the BEST TEs are born fam, miss me with ya disagreements.

I'd agree with you if it was purely about pass blocking. Because no matter how good or bad Kelce could be as a pass blocker, I'd rather have him running routes. But how good of a run blocker your TE is absolutely matters, because either way he's going to be on the field for a good chunk of those snaps.

[Bearerofnews]

18 hours ago, N4L said:

So essentially what you are saying is that blocking has no measurable impact and is therefore irrelevant? Lol 

Having a TE that can both block and catch is invaluable. You get them to block DEs and then it frees up your Ts to get LBs in space or double team the DT. It's like having 6 OL on the field. 

Then, when the defense has to go big to counter that, you can send them out to catch passes and it's a huge mismatch against most LBs. Or you leave them in to block in a passing situations, and not only do they Stonewall the DE, but the extra corner the defense brought in to cover him just hovers 5 yards down field and doesn't guard anyone actually running a route because they are worried about the TE screen. So now that TE took out two defenders by pass blocking the DE 1v1 on 3rd and 8 or whatever. That's huge. It gives the rest of the offense a big advantage. 

You force the other team into awkward situations and can dictate defenses. Look at the Ravens, 3 TEs at once and you have no clue if it's run or pass or even which side of the field it's going to. 

I can't believe that's the argument you're making 'The idea of an all around great TE is oxy-moronic' gtfo and go look up what oxy-moronic actually means lol 

Again, blocking by a TE is not a measurable impact. If so, please provide the data. Blocking by TE's and grading them is almost completely subjective.

Show me the data that shows how many DEs a TE blocks, yds gained behind that block, running plays going the direction of that TE, the amount of seconds the TE holds the block vs an inferior blocking TE. The truth is all TEs are going to hold their position in a block atleast 1.8 seconds where a so called elite TE will on avg, hold his block around 2.6 seconds.

You can measure the impact a rec RB has with tds, yds, first downs, yac. I never hear "best all around WR" because of their blocking.  Its an oxymoron statement, because you are using blocking for a skill position player to identify them as well rounded. Blocking doesnt make a skill position player "the most well rounded". Its such a lazy take. 

Show me the data that unequivocally establishes the impact of the level of blocking a TE provides and a tangible metrics that quantifies how good they are and ill buy in.

Otherwise its a couple of great blocks, that are creating this narrative that there is a huge disparity in the level of blocking between TEs.

Teams run pass plays out of 2 or 3 TE sets, they run to the side of the blocking specialist TE or to the opposite, towards the elite receiving TE as misdirections. In todays NFL there is no tipping defenses with offensive formations or personnel sets. Because offenses run so many different variations nowadays.

 

Closest thing ive seen to tangible data on TEs blocking is PFFs blocking grade. If anyone is privy to actual metrics to support your take please provide otherwise foh with lazy arguments that everyone regurgitates with out data to support.

Provide the data and ill plead ignorant and conform. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Bearerofnews

[Soko]

23 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Again, blocking by a TE is not a measurable impact. If so, please provide the data. Blocking by TE's and grading them is almost completely subjective.

Show me the data that shows how many DEs a TE blocks, yds gained behind that block, running plays going the direction of that TE, the amount of seconds the TE holds the block vs an inferior blocking TE. The truth is all TEs are going to hold their position in a block atleast 1.8 seconds where a so called elite TE will on avg, hold his block around 2.6 seconds.

You can measure the impact a rec RB has with tds, yds, first downs, yac. I never hear "best all around WR" because of their blocking.  Its an oxymoron statement, because you are using blocking for a skill position player to identify them as well rounded. Blocking doesnt make a skill position player "the most well rounded". Its such a lazy take. 

Show me the data that unequivocally establishes the impact of the level of blocking a TE provides and a tangible metrics that quantifies how good they are and ill buy in.

Otherwise its a couple of great blocks, that are creating this narrative that there is a huge disparity in the level of blocking between TEs.

Teams run pass plays out of 2 or 3 TE sets, they run to the side of the blocking specialist TE or to the opposite, towards the elite receiving TE as misdirections. In todays NFL there is no tipping defenses with offensive formations or personnel sets. Because offenses run so many different variations nowadays.

 

Closest thing ive seen to tangible data on TEs blocking is PFFs blocking grade. If anyone is privy to actual metrics to support your take please provide otherwise foh with lazy arguments that everyone regurgitates with out data to support.

Provide the data and ill plead ignorant and conform. 

No one is arguing that there’s data. They’re saying just because it’s not something you can measure with independent numbers, doesn’t mean you can’t roughly quantify it on the field. You don’t need numbers to be able to tell that Gronkowski was an elite run blocker and better at it than Kelce or Walker or Olsen or Graham. 

Blocking is a big part of a tight end’s job. If they’re good, they could be responsible for sealing the edge or even lead blocking - against LBs and defensive linemen at times. Wide receivers, even the best of blockers, aren’t asked to do that. Comparing the two is nonsensical. 

You should be familiar with how tight ends can effect personnel. Sony Michel ran it downs the Chargers’ throats last season because they refused to take DBs off the field. It worked against other teams, but having against blockers like Gronkowski, you’re going to need more than a DB.

[Bearerofnews]

11 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

No one is arguing that there’s data. They’re saying just because it’s not something you can measure with independent numbers, doesn’t mean you can’t roughly quantify it on the field. You don’t need numbers to be able to tell that Gronkowski was an elite run blocker and better at it than Kelce or Walker or Olsen or Graham. 

Blocking is a big part of a tight end’s job. If they’re good, they could be responsible for sealing the edge or even lead blocking - against LBs and defensive linemen at times. Wide receivers, even the best of blockers, aren’t asked to do that. Comparing the two is nonsensical. 

You should be familiar with how tight ends can effect personnel. Sony Michel ran it downs the Chargers’ throats last season because they refused to take DBs off the field. It worked against other teams, but having against blockers like Gronkowski, you’re going to need more than a DB.

In theory that all sounds great and you just might be right. I can sit here and say i watch every play multiple times to see how good TEs block or dont block, but that's just not the case. I just know from what ive watched around the league and experienced on my own team, an elite receiving TE not being a dominant blocker hasnt been a detriment or an issue and ive never ever watched a game and said that TE blocking was the difference or made a bug impact. I dunno, i just never have. Including that game you referenced. I didnt leave that game thinking "man gronk made an impact". TEs being "great" blockers happens so little in a play per play basis, that i just dont believe it matters that much.

If youre lucky, you might be able to point to 8 good blocks a TE had all year.

With RBs rec/running its obvious the impact. Im just a data guy. I need the data to quantify things. Right, wrong or indifferent.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Bearerofnews

[Manny/Patrick]

Kittle with the ball is a legit top 3 runner. I’m amazed how he looks for contact

[Soko]

39 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

In theory that all sounds great and you just might be right. I can sit here and say i watch every play multiple times to see how good TEs block or dont block, but that's just not the case. I just know from what ive watched around the league and experienced on my own team, an elite receiving TE not being a dominant blocker hasnt been a detriment or an issue and ive never ever watched a game and said that TE blocking was the difference or made a bug impact. I dunno, i just never have. Including that game you referenced. I didnt leave that game thinking "man gronk made an impact". TEs being "great" blockers happens so little in a play per play basis, that i just dont believe it matters that much.

If youre lucky, you might be able to point to 8 good blocks a TE had all year.

With RBs rec/running its obvious the impact. Im just a data guy. I need the data to quantify things. Right, wrong or indifferent.

Shrug, I think you’d fall into the same boat as a lot of us - I haven’t keyed on Mike McGlinchey all season to pick apart every aspect of his game, but I can say he’s been better than anyone the Patriots have had at tackle.

I think it’s fair to say you, myself, and plenty others haven’t watched a significant number of these TE snaps to definitively look at their run blocking and compare them. I don’t necessarily think you need to scout a player to have a feel for them, though. And at the same time, I don’t think it’s accurate to say a tight end’s blocking doesn’t matter in what kind of player they are, their impact, or their ranking. It’s like offensive lines in run blocking.

[N4L]

2 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

You're greatly underestimating Kelce as a receiver if you think Kittle is better than him at basically everything in that regard.

Kelce is having a down year (not statistically, but performance wise), so I do think Kittle is the best TE in the league at the moment. But Kelce is an elite YAC TE, route runner, and downfield threat. If Kittle has the edge in any of those regards, it's marginally so. Kittle gets the bump for his blocking, and I'd guess he's probably dropped fewer passes this year (not looking it up, just going off of what I've seen from Kelce in that regard.) But you're kidding yourself if you think Kittle is clearly better at everything.

Kittle might be the best player in the NFL at YAC. He leads the league in receiving yards after contact over the last two years. That's a fact.

Last year, the year he broke the receiving yards record for a TE, he had most of his yards after the catch. He's got 4.5 speed and punishes defenders. He always looks to initiate contact and it's gotten to the point that he is intimidating defenders imo. He's got a nasty stiff arm. Look at 4th and 2 from last week if you need an example. 

Kelce is elite with regards to YAC but kittle is better. You can be elite and not be the best. There is no non running back I would rather have with the ball in their hands than George Kittle. 

Kittle is a better route runner. There is no question about it. He's quicker than kelce. Kelce is a great player because of his natural athletic ability and his length. He is super smooth in the way he moves and he's good at finding the soft spot in the zone and using his height to his advantage. He's a great asset to have for any offense for sure and one of the best TEs of this generation, but kittle is better right now 

Kittle has better hips. I said earlier in the thread he's more of a quick twitch athlete than kelce is. I stand by that. He's more explosive. I mean, I showed that clip earlier of the route he ran against the Packers, that kind of speed is extremely rare. He absolutely cooked that S. I mean, how many TEs will get as many option routes called for them? That's typically reserved for smaller quicker wrs and not big strong TEs. 

I think I've made my opinion known, I won't keep going in circles with you guys. Right now, I give the edge to kittle in blocking and receiving. That may change down the road because kittles style of play isn't conducive to a long career and kelce has been the epitome of consistency, but kittle is the better player at the moment 

I consider gronk to be the best TE of all time. He battled injuries and other players might have had longer careers, but if you had to choose 1 TE to play one game for you, you take gronk 10/10. That's how I feel about kittle/kelce, kelce might be the better player over a longer period, but if I had to go win one game, I choose kittle 100/100. He's just better right now. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Quote

George Kittle is doing Gronk-like things

As my colleague Sam Monson pointed out in a recent article, Kittle is currently earning a higher PFF grade than Rob Gronkowski ever earned in a single season in his dominant NFL career. Gronkowski graded at 90.0 or higher in seven consecutive seasons, but he never recorded a season that matched where Kittle sits now, at an overall grade of 93.8. That alone is a remarkable feat, given that Gronkowski was the unquestioned pinnacle of the tight end landscape over the last decade.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-how-kyle-shanahan-has-taken-the-49ers-offense-to-the-top-of-the-nfl

Just saying.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by PapaShogun

[Chris87]

On 12/14/2019 at 2:04 AM, Bearerofnews said:

I'm a contrarian in this stance. The idea of an all around great TE is oxy-moronic. Its like calling a DE that drops in coverage and has minimal impact in pass coverage all around the best DE.  For RB it works, because its catching and running and 2 very measurable impacts. Who cares if your TE1 is a great blocker. Teams carry 3 TEs for a reason.

Give me the best receiving TEs.

Thats Gates, Gonzo, Winslow, Sharpe.. with Gronk and Kelce. Kittle is making his claim soon to be in that company. 

AFCW is where the BEST TEs are born fam, miss me with ya disagreements.

yes AFC west is the home of goat TE’s

1. Gates

2. Gonzo

3. Gronk

4. Winslow, Sr.

5. Sharpe

honorable mentions, Kelce, Todd Heap

Kittle is awesome but needs a larger sample size before he joins this crowd

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, Chris87 said:

yes AFC west is the home of goat TE’s

1. Gates

2. Gonzo

3. Gronk

4. Winslow, Sr.

5. Sharpe

honorable mentions, Kelce, Todd Heap

Kittle is awesome but needs a larger sample size before he joins this crowd

Not sure if you are saying Gronk played in the AFCW? Also Heap? Thats an interesting selection