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GDT: Chiefs @ Bears, 12/22, Primetime


beardown3231

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14 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

His offense is exact same as 2 other teams and has many of exact same plays as 28-30. 

It's the execution that is failing not the plays.  

You can blame him for that if you want.  

That is my issue with a lot of it.

 

Me and @beardown3231 have had a fun banter back and forth over the screen game for example. It is a core play here but the team blows at executing it these last two years. NE runs it well as does half the NFL, so why the hell can't we? We finally had one work well for Holtz last week but for the last 2 years it seems like we average 3 yards on them (though IDK what the actual average is under Nagy). There have been personnel issues (used Gabriel as a blocker, Kyle Long's corpse tried getting in space this year, etc) but overall the execution is terrible on such a basic play. While I don't think Nagy has a great natural feel as a playcaller he is no doubt intelligent and a creative play designer, so why can't the team get something so basic down? It's bizarre. I'm sure they practice it but it barely translates to the field.

 

Add what seems to be a big regression from Trubisky and 2019 just became "The Sh**show in Chicago."

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

That is my issue with a lot of it.

 

Me and @beardown3231 have had a fun banter back and forth over the screen game for example. It is a core play here but the team blows at executing it these last two years. NE runs it well as does half the NFL, so why the hell can't we? We finally had one work well for Holtz last week but for the last 2 years it seems like we average 3 yards on them (though IDK what the actual average is under Nagy). There have been personnel issues (used Gabriel as a blocker, Kyle Long's corpse tried getting in space this year, etc) but overall the execution is terrible on such a basic play. While I don't think Nagy has a great natural feel as a playcaller he is no doubt intelligent and a creative play designer, so why can't the team get something so basic down? It's bizarre. I'm sure they practice it but it barely translates to the field.

 

Add what seems to be a big regression from Trubisky and 2019 just became "The Sh**show in Chicago."

 

 

I mean we like Holtz, but he couldn't make the Redskins roster.  Which is arguably worst in the league.  On our offense he is one of our best upfront players.

Personnel is an issue.  

Also no one fears our downfield passing game.   Screens work as a play because LBs and DB are dropping.  Like a draw play.   Nobody does that against 2019 Bears.  Everyone is playing eyes on QB knowing he has to get rid of ball in 2.5 seconds or less.

It's easy to defend Bears because their base plays do not work RPO, IZ zone and Zone read.  The base plays set up other plays and trick plays.  

Like a boxer with no jab.  Only weak telegraphed haymakers.

If you can't run the ball or pass deep you simply can't run screens.  You can't run anything.  Nothing works if you can't do those two things.  No genius playcaller can fix that with right combination and timing.  

It's an execution issue.  So it's both Nagy's fault and not his fault at same time.

It's Nagy's fault because assignments are being blown and technique is poor and reads are not being made properly and wrong players are playing.

It's also not his fault because he is some horrible play caller and it's not his fault because he is not in charge of picking players.

You could argue that Nagy should change whole offense to fit his personnel.  But then you aren't developing continuity in a system going forward.  So it isn't an easy call.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I mean we like Holtz, but he couldn't make the Redskins roster.  Which is arguably worst in the league.  On our offense he is one of our best upfront players.

Personnel is an issue.  

Also no one fears our downfield passing game.   Screens work as a play because LBs and DB are dropping.  Like a draw play.   Nobody does that against 2019 Bears.  Everyone is playing eyes on QB knowing he has to get rid of ball in 2.5 seconds or less.

It's easy to defend Bears because their base plays do not work RPO, IZ zone and Zone read.  The base plays set up other plays and trick plays.  

Like a boxer with no jab.  Only weak telegraphed haymakers.

If you can't run the ball or pass deep you simply can't run screens.  You can't run anything.  Nothing works if you can't do those two things.  No genius playcaller can fix that with right combination and timing.  

It's an execution issue.  So it's both Nagy's fault and not his fault at same time.

It's Nagy's fault because assignments are being blown and technique is poor and reads are not being made properly and wrong players are playing.

It's also not his fault because he is some horrible play caller and it's not his fault because he is not in charge of picking players.

You could argue that Nagy should change whole offense to fit his personnel.  But then you aren't developing continuity in a system going forward.  So it isn't an easy call.

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed but they constantly screw  themselves over, so he may have been one of the better players and just blew it  

 

Tru has missed so many open throws its like having a high schooler back there. No one needs to feel afraid even with someone like Robinson he still is able to whiff on them. But even if you add those the offense is still laughably underwhelming. The screen Holtz had big success on I think was a jailbreak Blitz that left him uncovered, so it seemed more like luck (or mayne Nagy called the right play from instinct) than by expected execution.

I agree. Had this point we need to heavily invest in the offensive line, cut dead weights, and find a cheap competitor for the quarterback spot. That's why I want to draft one in the second. Trubisky has shown he can play well for stretches but is too volatile and is not going to be anywhere near worth the big deal he wants. He won't be the highest paid but he doesn't deserve to be in the top 20 highest paid quarterbacks per year. It's just a bad return on investment with the kid. Nagy isn't going to suddenly turn him around in my opinion, so let's see if he can do something with someone else.

Exactly and that's why I want Nagy to have much more control for 2020 and then if it flops again it falls directly on his shoulders. We need to see if he is the one who is supposed to be the leader of the franchise or if he is just a guy who wasn't ready for the spotlight. I hope he is the right guy, but I haven't seen enough yet to really think he is. The corrections for this upcoming season will be what will tell me if I think he is or is not.

I see what you mean by wanting continuity but in the end results are all that matter. They have changed dramatically in Baltimore to fit a player, they have changed systems elsewhere to fit other players, and in the end of the day the only thing that matters is putting points on the board, keeping the opponent from putting points on the board, and getting a W. I expect Nagy and Pace to be able to do that and if they can't they both need booted.

Edited by Sugashane
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23 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Quarterback throws short of the line to gain often & quarterback doesn't see open receivers on many plays = terrible offense

In a way you're right. If Nagy can't teach Trubisky to throw the ball enough yards and to open receivers, Bears need to find a play caller that designs EVERY receiver open on EVERY play & who will never call a play that results in a 3rd down

OL sucks. QB sucks. Cohen regressed. Montgomery is okay. Miller took 12 weeks to perform. TE's blow. This isn't Nagy's fault, it's that a**clown Pace's fault

It's both of their faults. Nagy has already had 2 full offseasons to address these concerns.  I'd say this coming one is his and Pace's last shot to show us they're worthy of being the HC/GM of this team beyond 2020.

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6 hours ago, topwop1 said:

It's both of their faults. Nagy has already had 2 full offseasons to address these concerns.  I'd say this coming one is his and Pace's last shot to show us they're worthy of being the HC/GM of this team beyond 2020.

If it's mental with Trubisky, there's nothing Nagy can do. He's a football coach, not a psychiatrist.

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13 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

If it's mental with Trubisky, there's nothing Nagy can do. He's a football coach, not a psychiatrist.

Ok I've acknowledged several times that Trubisky could be a large part of the problem but it's also very convenient to simplify it by putting all the majority of blame on him for what ails this offense.

Last time I checked the o-line still sucks and we have no run game to speak of ever since Fox left and Nagy was hired.

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50 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

Ok I've acknowledged several times that Trubisky could be a large part of the problem but it's also very convenient to simplify it by putting all the majority of blame on him for what ails this offense.

Last time I checked the o-line still sucks and we have no run game to speak of ever since Fox left and Nagy was hired.

OL is not terrible in pass blocking, just run blocking. Nobody is scared of Mitch making deep throws and it's condensing the pass game and making it really easy to defend us. It's also really easy to stop Mitch, just blitz him and he will throw the ball into coverage. He is very limited and this offense is not meant for him.

I think he would be at least average in Shannahan's system.

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22 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I see what you mean by wanting continuity but in the end results are all that matter. They have changed dramatically in Baltimore to fit a player, they have changed systems elsewhere to fit other players, and in the end of the day the only thing that matters is putting points on the board, keeping the opponent from putting points on the board, and getting a W. I expect Nagy and Pace to be able to do that and if they can't they both need booted.

Baltimore was waffling.  They ran their normal O year they drafted Jackson.  Then when they were going nowhere with Flacco they improvised with Jackson and liked what they saw.

 Then next year the changed everything and went all in.  They brought in an offensive coordinator in Roman who specializes in running QBs.  

I wrote a long post somewhere in offseason about how Baltimore was going to be really good this year and why.   One of few things I got really right this year.  A lot of people in general said no way.   DC's would eat them up just like SD did last year.

I have seen contrarian systems run well work at all levels of football.  It is a big advantage.  

Thing is Nagy does not want to win running a Trubisky offense.  He wants to win using his system.  I don't blame him.  Old adage in coaching is you coach what you know.

Just like Elway did not want to win running a Tebow offense.  He wanted to change that as fast as he could.  I have said for decades to a lot of poo poos you can win in NFL with a running QB, but you have to go all in on it with the scheme and give back ups quality reps.  

Downside is you will probably be screwed as soon as you have to pay your star QB.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Baltimore was waffling.  They ran their normal O year they drafted Jackson.  Then when they were going nowhere with Flacco they improvised with Jackson and liked what they saw.

 Then next year the changed everything and went all in.  They brought in an offensive coordinator in Roman who specializes in running QBs.  

I wrote a long post somewhere in offseason about how Baltimore was going to be really good this year and why.   One of few things I got really right this year.  A lot of people in general said no way.   DC's would eat them up just like SD did last year.

I have seen contrarian systems run well work at all levels of football.  It is a big advantage.  

Thing is Nagy does not want to win running a Trubisky offense.  He wants to win using his system.  I don't blame him.  Old adage in coaching is you coach what you know.

Just like Elway did not want to win running a Tebow offense.  He wanted to change that as fast as he could.  I have said for decades to a lot of poo poos you can win in NFL with a running QB, but you have to go all in on it with the scheme and give back ups quality reps.  

Downside is you will probably be screwed as soon as you have to pay your star QB.

 

 

 

 

Lamar has a short window to win it all. He probably has 3-4 years before he is injured. I don't expect him to play in 10 years. I think that's fine based on his draft status and the fact that it's really hard to find a QB who can play like Rogers for 10+ years. 

Harbaugh even mentioned that it's extremely difficult to find an elite QB so they figured let's try a new approach.

We don't have that luxury, we hired a coach who needs a quick release highly intelligent QB to run his system. We don't have a Shannahan run the ball and PA system. We are really in some serious trouble unless we find the next Alex Smith like QB.

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1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

Baltimore was waffling.  They ran their normal O year they drafted Jackson.  Then when they were going nowhere with Flacco they improvised with Jackson and liked what they saw.

 Then next year the changed everything and went all in.  They brought in an offensive coordinator in Roman who specializes in running QBs.  

I wrote a long post somewhere in offseason about how Baltimore was going to be really good this year and why.   One of few things I got really right this year.  A lot of people in general said no way.   DC's would eat them up just like SD did last year.

I have seen contrarian systems run well work at all levels of football.  It is a big advantage.  

Thing is Nagy does not want to win running a Trubisky offense.  He wants to win using his system.  I don't blame him.  Old adage in coaching is you coach what you know.

Just like Elway did not want to win running a Tebow offense.  He wanted to change that as fast as he could.  I have said for decades to a lot of poo poos you can win in NFL with a running QB, but you have to go all in on it with the scheme and give back ups quality reps.  

Downside is you will probably be screwed as soon as you have to pay your star QB.

 

 

 

 

This is a great post, and captures the nuance of innovative systems in a league full of rigid orthodoxy. 

Racing windsurfers has a similar analogy:  when they first got started lots of guys tried to sail toward the wind like sailboat does: as tight as possible to get the closest angle.  The innovators instead sailed a further angle, but went a lot faster.  What's funny is they usually reached the upwind marks at the same time even though they went different speeds becuase of the different angles. It showed that you could have really different approaches and still get the same result on the same course. Kind of a clumsy analogy for a run first offense opening up the deep pass in 2019 when everyone else thinks the rules mandate that you throw first.

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On 12/27/2019 at 1:08 PM, Nads786 said:

Lamar has a short window to win it all. He probably has 3-4 years before he is injured. I don't expect him to play in 10 years. I think that's fine based on his draft status and the fact that it's really hard to find a QB who can play like Rogers for 10+ years. 

Harbaugh even mentioned that it's extremely difficult to find an elite QB so they figured let's try a new approach.

We don't have that luxury, we hired a coach who needs a quick release highly intelligent QB to run his system. We don't have a Shannahan run the ball and PA system. We are really in some serious trouble unless we find the next Alex Smith like QB.

If you can win a SB with a running QB within 4 years does it matter if he can’t play 10 years? 

It does not. 10 year great QBs are super rare. 

Bears have one Super Bowl Win.

 

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