Nnivolcm Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 29 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: He's clearly arguing that their inability to get that stop was largely due to them being exhausted. I don't necessarily agree with the argument as it pertains to the 2019 Lions, but it's not hard to understand his point. The evidence he used was they couldn't stop the other team when it mattered. That argument just goes around in circles. In week 1 the lions had a 40 minute to 30 minute time of possession lead against the Cardinals, but weren't able to hold onto the 18 point 4th quarter lead. The defense was terrible, regardless of conditioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said: The evidence he used was they couldn't stop the other team when it mattered. That argument just goes around in circles. In week 1 the lions had a 40 minute to 30 minute time of possession lead against the Cardinals, but weren't able to hold onto the 18 point 4th quarter lead. The defense was terrible, regardless of conditioning. I don't necessarily disagree, although I don't think games where Stafford started make the best argument, as we had borderline great QB play at the time. Our TOP and 3 and outs (for the season and with/without Stafford) would be a better gauge of his argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 40 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: I don't necessarily disagree, although I don't think games where Stafford started make the best argument, as we had borderline great QB play at the time. Our TOP and 3 and outs (for the season and with/without Stafford) would be a better gauge of his argument. I dunno, box score scouting like that seems like it might miss some context... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 8 hours ago, Nnivolcm said: I dunno, box score scouting like that seems like it might miss some context... It's not just looking at final scores and drawing bold conclusions, which seems to be the preferred choice for some... it's actually digging deeper than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Alright. With Stafford, the team averaged 30:50 time of possession and 21 first downs per game. Without Stafford, the team averaged 28:48 time of possession and 18 first downs per page. (I didn't do 3 and outs... it's too early for that.) It was a decline, but not nearly as steep as I thought it would be. I'm not sure that these stats trump the numerous others that seem to show our defense struggled mightily in 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardlionfan Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 On 2020-01-02 at 4:37 PM, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Being realistic isn't just staring at the final record and basing next year's predictions on that alone. (And pretending that what took place 40+ years ago has any bearing on the 2020 season is flawed reasoning, in my opinion.) Had Stafford played all 16 games and this team finished 3-12-1, I wouldn't think it likely that this team finish with 10+ wins next year. That wasn't the case. We finished 3-4-1 with him, after losing two extremely close games against two playoff teams. I don't think it's any stretch that we could've ended up with 8-9 wins this year had Stafford not been injured, and I expect this team to only improve in the off-season. We're adding the 3rd overall pick (value) and plenty of cap space to a healthy Stafford. I've never guaranteed that this team would finish with 10+ wins, but only asserted that it's absolutely possible. And it is. This isn't homerism or blind optimism: it's fact. Stating that it's impossible to finish with 10+ wins in 2020 is quite simply not true. Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. TL, you’re entitled to your opinion just as others who disagree are. I think it’s really unfair when you tell others they aren’t being realistic, then explain your point of view. I’ve followed this team for 55 years give or take a year and I feel my view of them is realistic and not coloured by bias. Some, like yourself choose to be optimistic about this team regardless of performance. The Lions have the third overall pick and cap space. It’s not like they haven’t been here before. The Lions aren’t operating in a vacuum as other teams have the draft and free agency as well. Quinn has had plenty of time to fix the roster and in fact has churned personnel more than any GM I recall. His results are terrible and there can be no argument about that. Patricia has been worse. Quinn has taken an organization that was on the cusp of stability and consistency and undermined everything with his poor coach selection and personnel decisions. I get you think they deserve another year. Many of us don’t. You base your opinion on assumption and some, like myself base our opinion on performance. Period! Nothing else matters when measuring success with the Lions. Injuries are an excuse. They happen to all teams, every year. It’s obvious and has been since Stafford was drafted that the team can’t support a QB of his caliber. Without him they didn’t win a game and Quinn and Patricia didn’t have the foresight to have a quality back up on the roster. Again, it’s their choices that resulted in a three win season. The Lions canned a number of position coaches. They’ve been made scapegoats for the ineffective hiring decisions of Quinn and Patricia. Today they announced the hiring of a defensive backs coach to take over as DC. Nothing like adding an inexperienced coordinator with a weak resume. He might find success but it’s unlikely he’s going to step in and find immediate success. I don’t know anyone who will jump up and down claiming it was a great hire. It’s more like a shot in the dark. Of course there’s the NE connection,🙄 Thats been a great strategy for these guys. In any business when the Boss publicly fires a successful coach claiming his roster under achieved then the team regresses two consecutive years he has destroyed his credibility and in performance driven organizations would be dismissed. I’ve maintained for years one of the fundamental issues surrounding the Lions is an ineffective evaluation system for coaches, trainers, the GM etc. I have yet to see evidence they’ve changed. Of course it’s possible the team could get 10 or more wins. It’s also possible they win zero games. We aren’t talking possibilities but likely outcomes. It’s not likely they go winless and it’s not likely they win 10 games. After the 2018 season the cry was it was Patricias first year. Well, his second year was worse wasn’t it. Jim Caldwell is the only coach who lasted at least a season to have a winning record since Joe Schmidt. For reference, were you born then? The Lions, as an organization are the poster team for incompetence. Imagine, one coach over a period of 48 years has a winning record and they fire him! They fired him claiming it wasn’t good enough then regress in successive seasons. Given the past two seasons the decision the organization made with Caldwell is ridiculous, unsupportable and from my perspective unacceptable. Caldwell was fired simply because Quinn wanted to bring in his buddy. It’s interesting the one hire that seems to have worked out, Bevell, has zero New England ties. It’s curious that he had experience and success at the position but rather than hire others with past success they revert to the NE connection and hire someone without experience as DC. From a management perspective you simply can’t make this stuff up. They seem incapable of recognizing what works for them and incorporating that strategy into decision making. So, I’ve been a fan for a very long time. I’ve watched them waste draft choices, continue to make the same mistakes, alienate star players, waste Stafford's career and continue to value personal connections above experience and success. This season I had optimism and they hammered it out of me. I refuse to give the Lions the benefit of the doubt after decades of disaster. They will have to prove it to me and none of their PR, excuses, or rationale will sway me. Everything this organization does I’ve seen time and time again with one exception. WINNING! They simply don’t win. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said: Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. TL, you’re entitled to your opinion just as others who disagree are. I think it’s really unfair when you tell others they aren’t being realistic, then explain your point of view. I’ve followed this team for 55 years give or take a year and I feel my view of them is realistic and not coloured by bias. Some, like yourself choose to be optimistic about this team regardless of performance. The Lions have the third overall pick and cap space. It’s not like they haven’t been here before. The Lions aren’t operating in a vacuum as other teams have the draft and free agency as well. Quinn has had plenty of time to fix the roster and in fact has churned personnel more than any GM I recall. His results are terrible and there can be no argument about that. Patricia has been worse. Quinn has taken an organization that was on the cusp of stability and consistency and undermined everything with his poor coach selection and personnel decisions. I get you think they deserve another year. Many of us don’t. You base your opinion on assumption and some, like myself base our opinion on performance. Period! Nothing else matters when measuring success with the Lions. Injuries are an excuse. They happen to all teams, every year. It’s obvious and has been since Stafford was drafted that the team can’t support a QB of his caliber. Without him they didn’t win a game and Quinn and Patricia didn’t have the foresight to have a quality back up on the roster. Again, it’s their choices that resulted in a three win season. The Lions canned a number of position coaches. They’ve been made scapegoats for the ineffective hiring decisions of Quinn and Patricia. Today they announced the hiring of a defensive backs coach to take over as DC. Nothing like adding an inexperienced coordinator with a weak resume. He might find success but it’s unlikely he’s going to step in and find immediate success. I don’t know anyone who will jump up and down claiming it was a great hire. It’s more like a shot in the dark. Of course there’s the NE connection,🙄 Thats been a great strategy for these guys. In any business when the Boss publicly fires a successful coach claiming his roster under achieved then the team regresses two consecutive years he has destroyed his credibility and in performance driven organizations would be dismissed. I’ve maintained for years one of the fundamental issues surrounding the Lions is an ineffective evaluation system for coaches, trainers, the GM etc. I have yet to see evidence they’ve changed. Of course it’s possible the team could get 10 or more wins. It’s also possible they win zero games. We aren’t talking possibilities but likely outcomes. It’s not likely they go winless and it’s not likely they win 10 games. After the 2018 season the cry was it was Patricias first year. Well, his second year was worse wasn’t it. Jim Caldwell is the only coach who lasted at least a season to have a winning record since Joe Schmidt. For reference, were you born then? The Lions, as an organization are the poster team for incompetence. Imagine, one coach over a period of 48 years has a winning record and they fire him! They fired him claiming it wasn’t good enough then regress in successive seasons. Given the past two seasons the decision the organization made with Caldwell is ridiculous, unsupportable and from my perspective unacceptable. Caldwell was fired simply because Quinn wanted to bring in his buddy. It’s interesting the one hire that seems to have worked out, Bevell, has zero New England ties. It’s curious that he had experience and success at the position but rather than hire others with past success they revert to the NE connection and hire someone without experience as DC. From a management perspective you simply can’t make this stuff up. They seem incapable of recognizing what works for them and incorporating that strategy into decision making. So, I’ve been a fan for a very long time. I’ve watched them waste draft choices, continue to make the same mistakes, alienate star players, waste Stafford's career and continue to value personal connections above experience and success. This season I had optimism and they hammered it out of me. I refuse to give the Lions the benefit of the doubt after decades of disaster. They will have to prove it to me and none of their PR, excuses, or rationale will sway me. Everything this organization does I’ve seen time and time again with one exception. WINNING! They simply don’t win. I don't disagree with anything you are saying. For 55 years you have two things that remain the same, being a Lions fan and the Ford's owning the Lions. I've asked this before and I'll ask it again a different way. Do you trust the Ford's to fire Quinn and Patricia and hire the right replacements? Plain and simple, that's the question. I DO NOT LIKE QUINN, PATRICIA, AND WOOD! Period. However, I don't trust the Ford's to hire the right people to ever win! EVER! Do Patricia and Quinn deserve to be fired, I think they do. Do I want the Ford's to do it, no, because we'll end up with Marty Morninwheg or MP 2.0 again. Our best chance is to get lucky with what they are building/or not building depending on your perspective. In 55 years the Lions never have given you wins. Bob Quinn is 44 years old for perspective. BQ is not the problem. MP is not the problem. Caldwell is not the problem. Mayhew is not the problem. It's William, Martha, Bill, Sheila and company. Those are the can't get rights in Detroit. Edited January 13, 2020 by LionArkie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardlionfan Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 On 2020-01-06 at 9:35 AM, Karnage84 said: Fair enough, to each their own. At least we're clear on your position. Yes and the positions of others are clear as well. The reality of the teams losing year after year doesn’t seem to weigh on the optimism of fans such as yourself. Its humorous to watch fans try to justify their optimism through assumption and excuses while totally disregarding the obvious incompetence of the Lions from ownership right down to coaches. The optimists claim the doubters aren’t being realistic 🙄 yet it’s the optimists that discount the actual results of the franchise basing their opinion on assumptions and hope. The Lions are the kings of could've, should’ve, would’ve. Nothing matters but wins and losses. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, it doesn't count in football. Personally the Lions have ground out any optimism I had. I’ve wasted my money on season tickets, decades of NFL cable packages, jerseys, gasoline and hotels just to perennially be let down by a franchise that has never figured it out. For next season we purchased a seat license for the Las Vegas Raiders. If nothing else I can make some $$$$ as we have a casino host ready to buy any tickets we don’t use. Due to location the Raiders present a much better entertainment option and I don’t have to suffer the long drive home after another disappointing loss. I’m not giving up on the Lions but I’m certainly not waiting on them either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardlionfan Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, LionArkie said: I don't disagree with anything you are saying. For 55 years you have two things that remain the same, being a Lions fan and the Ford's owning the Lions. I've asked this before and I'll ask it again a different way. Do you trust the Ford's to fire Quinn and Patricia and hire the right replacements? Plain and simple, that's the question. I DO NOT LIKE QUINN, PATRICIA, AND WOOD! Period. However, I don't trust the Ford's to hire the right people to ever win! EVER! Do Patricia and Quinn deserve to be fired, I think they do. Do I want the Ford's to do it, no, because we'll end up with Marty Morninwheg or MP 2.0 again. Our best chance is to get lucky with what they are building/or not building depending on your perspective. In 55 years the Lions never have given you wins. Bob Quinn is 44 years old for perspective. BQ is not the problem. MP is not the problem. Caldwell is not the problem. Mayhew is not the problem. It's William, Martha, Bill, Sheila and company. Those are the can't get rights in Detroit. LionArkie.......I don’t trust anything or anyone affiliated with the Lions. Ownership has been ineffective at assembling a management team that can generate wins. That’s on them. Those that have been given a chance and failed, that’s on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) That's what I thought and think it is a completely valid answer. I think this is where I differ from those who want BQ and MP gone, and where I differ from those who want them to stay. I have 0 faith in the Fords. I don't want to see another rebuild, just to wait it out and be in this exact same place 5 years from now. I feel 1.5-2 years of Patricia is not enough time to know for sure on MP and Quinn (I know Quinn has been here for 4years). I would give any coach 5 years. If they have me in the playoffs 2 out of those 5 years, I'd give an extension. If I won the division 1 out of the 5 years, especially if it was later in the 5 year tenure, I'd give an extension. I know it would be unpopular, but my hope would be to build something long term. If after 5 years, nothing happened, I'd fire the staff and replace them. If after 3, I don't see an improvement in the roster, and I've been under 500 all seasons, they would be fired. ***I'm going to add, at this point, I don't see an improvement in the Lions roster from when Quinn has taken over for Mayhew. Edited January 13, 2020 by LionArkie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 20 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said: I’m not giving up on the Lions but I’m certainly not waiting on them either. As a Lion's fan, one is forced to have a second team, lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardlionfan Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, LionArkie said: As a Lion's fan, one is forced to have a second team, lol. Yup. This is the first season since the NFL package was made available on cable that I haven’t watched all the Lions games. My time is better spent with other activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 That's where I've been for the last two years as well. I'd rather do something that doesn't cause me heartache. Then, I jump back on these forums and get sucked back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I'm sort of confused. My argument during this time has been that Stafford's injury was the main reason why we finished with 3 wins in 2019, and that, after off-season moves, to include adding the 3rd overall pick value to this team, it's completely possible that we finish with 10+ wins. I believe it's ridiculous to say that it's impossible that we'll reach that win total. If someone says "It's not likely that we win 10 games next year": sure. That's reasonable. That makes sense. Some may feel that it isn't likely. It's still not impossible. Take a few playoff teams from 2019: the Seahawks, Packers, Chiefs. If Wilson, Rodgers or Mahomes missed the season, would those teams be in the playoffs right now? Probably not. It's why quarterbacks land huge contracts, and why great ones tend to keep their team competitive year in and year out. Without those players, their team rarely remains competitive. So, when we argue that "injuries happen to all teams", lets make the comparisons accurate: compare this team with others that were missing their starting QB due to injury for (around) 8 games. It's a different conversation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) I'll also say this: after the week 4 game against the Chiefs, many on this board were in full support of Patricia. After a close loss to the Packers and Raiders, and an injury to Stafford, those same fans believe he's an awful coach. We need to stop and consider that. EDIT: serious guys, read this. That was earlier this season. Edited January 13, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.