LIONS BRINGING PATRICIA AND QUINN BACK FOR 2020

[NFL_Fan]

HAHAHAHA I wonder how they sleep at night knowing they are such failures. Wonder if they havee any confidence left. I realyl wouldn't understand how. This team is beyond pathetic. Like if I was at a store and shoot the entire squad could be there...I would just point and laugh...I respect my garbage man more then the Detroit Lions....ever...lmao everyone on here has as moany playoff wins as Stafford and he gets like 30 million a year to be a scrub. Do we have to start making threats? One thing about these old rich people is they dont like chaos...maybe thats what detroit needs...im sure someone would burn down fordfield for 10k  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Man, I wish football was a team sport.

 

[Sllim Pickens]

On 12/25/2019 at 8:50 AM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Meh. Quinn switched to Patricia after two years, which required another roster overhaul. We knew this would happen when Patricia was hired. Only those against the Patricia hire from the start have any rationale to complain about the roster right now. (We can also go back and forth about Quinn's draft choices, but he has had enough hits to earn a passing grade, IMO.)

The 3-4-1 record was clearly deceiving, as a last second loss to the Chiefs and that nonsense against the Packers had a huge hand in that. Considering the depleted defensive line, it's not overly surprising that our defense took a step back. And, for as much (deserved) criticism Patricia received for the defensive struggles during that span, he deserves as much credit for the success of the offense.

My argument is that this team wasn't ready to compete anyway, and the pieces are in place to actually grow a competitive roster. Instead of fighting for mediocrity and drafting 12-15, adding an elite 2-3 prospect and healthy Stafford to this team may be enough to see us make a playoff push as soon as next year.

Blowing it up - again - after only two seasons and inevitably drafting a QB 3rd overall, hoping he ever becomes what Stafford already is, isn't the right approach.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

I disagree, this roster is pure garbage aside from Stafford at this point. That or they just don’t fit the scheme.  I get most teams struggle when they don’t have their QB but it shows the true talent on this roster.  A lot of teams have lost key players this year and still compete on both sides (Pitt, NO, KC...). This is due to a lack of competence by Quinn. He is under 50% hit rates on his first round picks, same for second round picks, and has traded good young starters for nothing.  He is running our best defensive player out of town and likely will end up getting nothing for him
 

Our D is awful, like all time bad yards and points given up awful, and Patricia is supposed to be a defensive guy.  He still doesn’t understand how to be a head coach, can’t manage a game to save his life, and the team doesn’t seem to want to play for him. 

i get changing every two years isn’t a recipe for success, but neither is holding on too long when it seems pretty obvious the people in those positions aren’t the right ones for the job.  I think it goes above Quinn even which most fans do as well.  Rod Wood has no experience with a pro sports team, the Fords care more about money than winning and are too loyal in a business that changes so fast you need instant results.  We need a culture change which starts at the top, holds people accountable, and let’s them know they need results or they are fired.  

[Superduperman]

"Changing every two years" is irrelevant to a recipe for success. The only recipe for success is to hire the right people. If you hire the wrong ones, you get rid of them as soon as they show they're not the right ones.

You guys know what escape velocity is? Basically it means that if you launch a rocket that goes 5 mph, even if it stays pointed straight up, it will never reach orbit. You have to achieve a certain speed, in a short period of time, or your rocket will fall back to earth and explode in a million pieces.

NFL regimes either show improvement very quickly, or they are doomed. This ain't 1974.

[diehardlionfan]

On 2019-12-25 at 8:50 AM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Meh. Quinn switched to Patricia after two years, which required another roster overhaul. We knew this would happen when Patricia was hired. Only those against the Patricia hire from the start have any rationale to complain about the roster right now. (We can also go back and forth about Quinn's draft choices, but he has had enough hits to earn a passing grade, IMO.)

The 3-4-1 record was clearly deceiving, as a last second loss to the Chiefs and that nonsense against the Packers had a huge hand in that. Considering the depleted defensive line, it's not overly surprising that our defense took a step back. And, for as much (deserved) criticism Patricia received for the defensive struggles during that span, he deserves as much credit for the success of the offense.

My argument is that this team wasn't ready to compete anyway, and the pieces are in place to actually grow a competitive roster. Instead of fighting for mediocrity and drafting 12-15, adding an elite 2-3 prospect and healthy Stafford to this team may be enough to see us make a playoff push as soon as next year.

Blowing it up - again - after only two seasons and inevitably drafting a QB 3rd overall, hoping he ever becomes what Stafford already is, isn't the right approach.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

Merry Christmas TL. Wishing you a great New Year.

Normally I’m a continuity guy but in this case I’m not.

Giving them another year is the exact strategy that has doomed the Lions over the past 60 years.

Stability and consistency are important but it can also be an organizations downfall. Quinn very publicly stated his expectations and goals he has failed miserably in achieving them.

All he’s done is fire the winningest Lions coach in my life time, churn the roster and regress each year. 

You said it’s only been 2 years which is true for Patricia but Quinn has been here 4 years and done nothing. 

In evaluating the team the only thing that matters is performance. What are your criteria? You said it’s to early. What time frame do you believe is appropriate? During that time frame does performance matter?

How does a fan accept Quinn’s public statements about Caldwell only to see Quinn fail totally in achieving his publicly stated objectives and his evaluation of the team?

Quinn publicly stated he felt the team was better than results obtained under Caldwell. He’s publicly proven his incompetence at evaluating the team even after two additional drafts and free agency periods. His retention destroys what little credibility the team has left. 

Sorry, but we have to disagree on this one. 

[diehardlionfan]

22 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I disagree, this roster is pure garbage aside from Stafford at this point. That or they just don’t fit the scheme.  I get most teams struggle when they don’t have their QB but it shows the true talent on this roster.  A lot of teams have lost key players this year and still compete on both sides (Pitt, NO, KC...). This is due to a lack of competence by Quinn. He is under 50% hit rates on his first round picks, same for second round picks, and has traded good young starters for nothing.  He is running our best defensive player out of town and likely will end up getting nothing for him
 

Our D is awful, like all time bad yards and points given up awful, and Patricia is supposed to be a defensive guy.  He still doesn’t understand how to be a head coach, can’t manage a game to save his life, and the team doesn’t seem to want to play for him. 

i get changing every two years isn’t a recipe for success, but neither is holding on too long when it seems pretty obvious the people in those positions aren’t the right ones for the job.  I think it goes above Quinn even which most fans do as well.  Rod Wood has no experience with a pro sports team, the Fords care more about money than winning and are too loyal in a business that changes so fast you need instant results.  We need a culture change which starts at the top, holds people accountable, and let’s them know they need results or they are fired.  

Exactly!

Look at what the Steelers have done historically, including this year with injuries and key player departures. 

Another point is Patricias ability. Since when does a coach HAVE to have HIS players? I thought good coaches could maximize existing rosters by designing schemes that enhance ability not destroy it. His defensive wizardry is non existent as we’ve seen the team collapse defensively over the past two years. Now they couldn’t stop my Grandmother much less a competent NFL team.

It’s just more excuses from the worlds worst pro sports franchise. 

[Karnage84]

3 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

Merry Christmas TL. Wishing you a great New Year.

Normally I’m a continuity guy but in this case I’m not.

Giving them another year is the exact strategy that has doomed the Lions over the past 60 years.

Stability and consistency are important but it can also be an organizations downfall. Quinn very publicly stated his expectations and goals he has failed miserably in achieving them.

All he’s done is fire the winningest Lions coach in my life time, churn the roster and regress each year. 

You said it’s only been 2 years which is true for Patricia but Quinn has been here 4 years and done nothing. 

In evaluating the team the only thing that matters is performance. What are your criteria? You said it’s to early. What time frame do you believe is appropriate? During that time frame does performance matter?

How does a fan accept Quinn’s public statements about Caldwell only to see Quinn fail totally in achieving his publicly stated objectives and his evaluation of the team?

Quinn publicly stated he felt the team was better than results obtained under Caldwell. He’s publicly proven his incompetence at evaluating the team even after two additional drafts and free agency periods. His retention destroys what little credibility the team has left. 

Sorry, but we have to disagree on this one. 

Quinn was hired on January 8, 2016. The draft was held on April 28, 2016. A lot of the guys in that room were holdovers from Mayhew's era and he was drafting for a system/coach that was against his preferred method. He didn't even get a full off-season to scout guys and make his true mark. 

The first five picks of this draft are still on the roster with the top 3 being starters (Decker, A'Shawn, Glasgow) with Killebrew and Dahl playing significant roles. Zettel made an impact for a later round guy as well. 6/10

2017 was his first full off-season as GM. He selected Jarrad Davis who was an All-Rookie selection that year. He is responsible for adding BabyTron who is a top level NFL WR as a 3rd round pick. JRM and Agnew are both solid contributors in their roles as back ups. He definitely whiffed on Tabor and Roberts > Kittle. I'll give him Ledbetter as a back-up as there was some contribution fro him. 5/9

2018 - Every single guy is still on the roster. Five out of six picks are starters at their position (Ragnow, KJ, Walker, Hand, Bawden). There has been some injury issues in this class which does hurt the overall impact. You do really need 3 years to see what you have and for guys to get churned out. I don't expect Bawden to be on the roster next year, so we'll give this a 5/6.

16/25 = 64% Hit Rate *Not including 2019

Where Quinn can be found at fault is that he has not drafted any AP 1st Team or Pro Bowl players. The Lions have been a mediocre team and don't generate a lot of buzz. The Pro Bowl is more of a popularity contest especially for positions like OL. This does hurt the selection for a guy like Ragnow, who has been rated as the top OC by PFF at times throughout the season. WR is always stacked so Golladay is a guy that could miss out just due to the volume. Still, it is what it is and the criticism does hold. 

To me, Quinn is a slightly above to above average GM that has had moderate success. 2018 and 2019 are the true measures of who he is as an evaluator and team builder. He has the coach that he wants and he's drafting for the scheme of his choice. 

I think we're getting too stuck on his statements regarding Caldwell and his perennial 9-7 not being good enough. The decision was made to tear down and rebuild the organization in the mold of Patriots Mid-West. They did a poor job at communicating this and maybe it's because they expected to reload instead. There was a ton of roster turnover and a ton of organizational changes. 2020 is the year to really see what this team will be moving forward under this regime. If they bounce back and go 9-7, they're likely going to be given another 2-3 years to keep building. If they go 4-12 or 6-10 (or worse), then ownership is going to scrap this experience and find someone new. 

 

[LionArkie]

I too think people are stuck on the statement of Caldwell 9-7 not being good enough, although rightfully so.  The lions and Quinn handled the communication of a rebuild poorly.  I never felt like the lions were seriously saying they would use Caldwell's team (or was it schwartz's team?)  and keep trucking on.   Caldwell's firing would have been the perfect time for Martha to come out and say, "I am not my husband and I am committed to winning, but by doing so we will rebuild for the long term..." or something to that effect.  But now, we have "you said 9-7 wasn't good enough so... ya know".  Where I disagree is I don't believe the ownership will fire Quinn or Patricia at 6-10.  I believe they will say it is progress from last year. Four wins or less will  get Patricia fired though, I'm not so sure about Quinn.

Edited December 27, 2019 by LionArkie

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Lots of reasonable points are being made in this thread. I'd love to address each individually, but - frankly - I just don't have it in me. (You too diehardlionfan: to health and happiness.)

I completely disagree that our roster is garbage. There's a reason that this team was highly competitive against some of the best teams, even without key pieces on defense. There's also tons of youth, which will only continue to improve. Adding an elite prospect to this group could push us into competing for a playoff spot.

The hiring of Patricia essentially wiped out Quinn's previous drafts: with new coaches come new schemes. And two years quite simply isn't long enough to properly implement new schemes and have them playing at a high level consistently.

If Patricia is to get criticism for his defense, he must get credit for the thriving offense (pre-Stafford injury).

Hiring a coach and demanding immediate success is a poor strategy. Context is crucial, and our ability to be competitive despite a slew of injuries means something. I'd happily give Quinn/Patricia another 3-4 years to build this thing... after all, starting over only sets us back. (If it were up to me, we would never have fired Schwartz.)

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

6 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

Exactly!

Look at what the Steelers have done historically, including this year with injuries and key player departures. 

Another point is Patricias ability. Since when does a coach HAVE to have HIS players? I thought good coaches could maximize existing rosters by designing schemes that enhance ability not destroy it. His defensive wizardry is non existent as we’ve seen the team collapse defensively over the past two years. Now they couldn’t stop my Grandmother much less a competent NFL team.

It’s just more excuses from the worlds worst pro sports franchise. 

Respectfully, can one argue that Patricia did just this with the offense this year? (Before Stafford was injured, of course.)

[Karnage84]

4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Lots of reasonable points are being made in this thread. I'd love to address each individually, but - frankly - I just don't have it in me. (You too diehardlionfan: to health and happiness.)

I completely disagree that our roster is garbage. There's a reason that this team was highly competitive against some of the best teams, even without key pieces on defense. There's also tons of youth, which will only continue to improve. Adding an elite prospect to this group could push us into competing for a playoff spot.

The hiring of Patricia essentially wiped out Quinn's previous drafts: with new coaches come new schemes. And two years quite simply isn't long enough to properly implement new schemes and have them playing at a high level consistently.

If Patricia is to get criticism for his defense, he must get credit for the thriving offense (pre-Stafford injury).

Hiring a coach and demanding immediate success is a poor strategy. Context is crucial, and our ability to be competitive despite a slew of injuries means something. I'd happily give Quinn/Patricia another 3-4 years to build this thing... after all, starting over only sets us back. (If it were up to me, we would never have fired Schwartz.)

I'm not ready to hand them another 3-4 years right now. I do want to see how this team looks with another full off-season under their belt and without dealing with the plethora of injuries of key players/key positions. The defense is Patricia's baby and it has been awful. Bevell held up his end of the bargain. That needs to be turned around in a huge away. If the Lions are in the mix for the division title and a wildcard spot next year but fall just short, I wouldn't consider the season a failure and a fire-able offence. The Vikings are currently in this spot and I don't expect them to be moving on from Zimmer in the next 1-2 years. 

[Karnage84]

51 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Respectfully, can one argue that Patricia did just this with the offense this year? (Before Stafford was injured, of course.)

The Steelers lost: QB1 and QB2. Their RB1 has played 10/16 games. Neither Bell or AB should be brought into that equation because they weren't going to be factors on the roster going into the season. They've played well overall but they made a huge splash trade for Fitzpatrick that has worked out but does leave them without a 1st coming into this year. 

The Lions have been putting guys on IR like they're handing out pez candy but for what it's worth, Detroit has 16 guys on IR as opposed to the 6 the Steelers have. The Dolphins have 17 guys; Bengals have 12; Redskins have 22. 

[Karnage84]

I get interested in something and decide to look a little further into it. Just for my own sake, I wondered how much injuries have affected teams in their success. We've all heard that every team has to deal with injuries. How much worse off are the Lions in comparison to others and how has it affected their winning percentage?

The average number of players on IR is 12.5. Green = Teams that are over 12.5 players on IR

CIN    12
WSH    22
DET    16
NYG    11
MIA    17
JAX    18
LAC    9
CAR    13
ARI    13
NYJ    14
DEN    15
CLE    9
ATL    15
OAK    14
DAL    13
IND    14
TB    12
CHI    8
PIT    6
LAR    9

60% of these teams are at the 12.5 and up threshold

PLAYOFF TEAMS
PHI    11
TEN    9
BUF    6
MIN    2
HOU    14
KC    11
SEA    16
GB    8
NE    11
NO    14
SF    15
BAL    9
 

33% of these teams are at or above this threshold

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

6 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

The Steelers lost: QB1 and QB2. Their RB1 has played 10/16 games. Neither Bell or AB should be brought into that equation because they weren't going to be factors on the roster going into the season. They've played well overall but they made a huge splash trade for Fitzpatrick that has worked out but does leave them without a 1st coming into this year. 

The Lions have been putting guys on IR like they're handing out pez candy but for what it's worth, Detroit has 16 guys on IR as opposed to the 6 the Steelers have. The Dolphins have 17 guys; Bengals have 12; Redskins have 22. 

Reasonable. I guess that may point to just how crucial a part of our offense Stafford clearly is. Is he the best QB to miss more than half of this season?

[Sllim Pickens]

On 12/27/2019 at 1:48 PM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Hiring a coach and demanding immediate success is a poor strategy. Context is crucial, and our ability to be competitive despite a slew of injuries means something. I'd happily give Quinn/Patricia another 3-4 years to build this thing... after all, starting over only sets us back. (If it were up to me, we would never have fired Schwartz.)

I strongly disagree with this part.  There is not one single coach in the NFL that has been with his team prior to 2018 (aka been with their team for three seasons now, 16 coaches in this group) that Did not have a winning record in at least one of his first two seasons and make the playoffs in one of their first two seasons.  Good and great coaches win games with whatever they have.  Many of them with rookie QBs and back ups.  In this league you have to win now, or move on.  It’s pretty easy to see who has it and who doesn’t.  This team with Stafford lost a game at Oakland, later lost to crap teams like Washington, Chicago, embarrassed but Tampa, and then a Denver team with a second round rookie QB who looks average.  Quinn left this team without a viable back up QB, Patricia showed that without a QB he can’t scheme a defense.  Move on, cut your losses, and look for another coach who can win games.