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LIONS BRINGING PATRICIA AND QUINN BACK FOR 2020

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7 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I strongly disagree with this part.  There is not one single coach in the NFL that has been with his team prior to 2018 (aka been with their team for three seasons now, 16 coaches in this group) that Did not have a winning record in at least one of his first two seasons and make the playoffs in one of their first two seasons.  Good and great coaches win games with whatever they have.  Many of them with rookie QBs and back ups.  In this league you have to win now, or move on.  It’s pretty easy to see who has it and who doesn’t.  This team with Stafford lost a game at Oakland, later lost to crap teams like Washington, Chicago, embarrassed but Tampa, and then a Denver team with a second round rookie QB who looks average.  Quinn left this team without a viable back up QB, Patricia showed that without a QB he can’t scheme a defense.  Move on, cut your losses, and look for another coach who can win games. 

I just don't agree at all.

Your line about "good and great coaches" implies that these coaches have always been successful, which we know not to be true. For one example, Belichick's records with Cleveland: 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5, 5-11. There are tons of other obvious examples, but the point remains: context matters, at least, if the goal is to make a reasonable, informed decision.

We lost a last second game against Oakland, true. Lesser teams manage to beat better teams all the time in the NFL. It happens.

I've had this conversation quite a bit over the last few days, so I'll make the point here: this team wasn't going to compete for a playoff spot without Stafford. When he went down, I believe Quinn and Patricia knew that it would be an extended absence, and decided to make the decision that would best benefit the franchise long term: get a better draft pick. They could've traded key assets for better players and fought for mediocrity, but that doesn't benefit this team down the road. Instead, we're in line for the 3rd overall pick, a selection that could propel this team forward significantly.

If Stafford recovers and remains healthy next year, and if Quinn lands a deserving player at 3rd overall, we could be looking at 10 or 11 wins next year. And, if that happens, these "it's pretty easy to see who has it and who doesn't" conclusions may appear rather inaccurate.

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4 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I just don't agree at all.

Your line about "good and great coaches" implies that these coaches have always been successful, which we know not to be true. For one example, Belichick's records with Cleveland: 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5, 5-11. There are tons of other obvious examples, but the point remains: context matters, at least, if the goal is to make a reasonable, informed decision.

We lost a last second game against Oakland, true. Lesser teams manage to beat better teams all the time in the NFL. It happens.

I've had this conversation quite a bit over the last few days, so I'll make the point here: this team wasn't going to compete for a playoff spot without Stafford. When he went down, I believe Quinn and Patricia knew that it would be an extended absence, and decided to make the decision that would best benefit the franchise long term: get a better draft pick. They could've traded key assets for better players and fought for mediocrity, but that doesn't benefit this team down the road. Instead, we're in line for the 3rd overall pick, a selection that could propel this team forward significantly.

If Stafford recovers and remains healthy next year, and if Quinn lands a deserving player at 3rd overall, we could be looking at 10 or 11 wins next year. And, if that happens, these "it's pretty easy to see who has it and who doesn't" conclusions may appear rather inaccurate.

This team wasn’t competing for anything with Stafford.  The D still sucked.  Don’t let a close game against an Injured Mahomes skew the rest of the data.  We lost to a bad and untalented Raiders team.  We have looked unprepared in just about every game.  We don’t make adjustments.....
 

And yes, Belichick struggled in Cleveland, and they could have waited 8 more years for him to figure it out.  Same with Pete Carroll.  But those coaches had to learn how to be coaches and I’m not waiting 8 years for Patricia to do so. He can go be a college coach or an assistant under someone else and coach when he is ready.  So what if he goes on to be a great someday, he isn’t ready now, just like McDaniels wasn’t ready in the same situation.  Patricia needs more seasoning, he needs more creativity on his own and paying him to waste the last years of Stafford or blowing a young QB if we took one at 3 would be a bigger waste.  Like I said, successful coaches win with what they have.  Not one coach who lasted more than three years in the league currently has had 2 seasons of below .500 and gone on to be successful with that team.  I’ll take those odds over Patricia being the outlier.  

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1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

This team wasn’t competing for anything with Stafford.  The D still sucked.  Don’t let a close game against an Injured Mahomes skew the rest of the data.  We lost to a bad and untalented Raiders team.  We have looked unprepared in just about every game.  We don’t make adjustments.....
 

And yes, Belichick struggled in Cleveland, and they could have waited 8 more years for him to figure it out.  Same with Pete Carroll.  But those coaches had to learn how to be coaches and I’m not waiting 8 years for Patricia to do so. He can go be a college coach or an assistant under someone else and coach when he is ready.  So what if he goes on to be a great someday, he isn’t ready now, just like McDaniels wasn’t ready in the same situation.  Patricia needs more seasoning, he needs more creativity on his own and paying him to waste the last years of Stafford or blowing a young QB if we took one at 3 would be a bigger waste.  Like I said, successful coaches win with what they have.  Not one coach who lasted more than three years in the league currently has had 2 seasons of below .500 and gone on to be successful with that team.  I’ll take those odds over Patricia being the outlier.  

I mean... I'm not sure how that strengthens your stance.

First of all, this team was absolutely competing with Stafford. Saying otherwise is simply untrue, in my opinion. They had a 4th quarter lead in every single game they played with Stafford under center. They were flawed, absolutely, but undeniably competitive.

Are you arguing that you wouldn't have wanted Belichick? That it was right for CLE to fire him? I would've happily given Belichick 8 years of .500 football if I would've known he would develop into one of the best coaches in NFL history, and I think CLE would've done the same if they knew what we know now. Getting rid of a coach every two years that "hasn't figured it out", hoping that the guy you hire has magically figured it out, is a wonderful way to stay awful for a long time. (Using that logic, NE would've never hired Belichick because he had only proven that he "hadn't figured it out" based on his time in CLE.)

Please, answer me this: if Patricia wins 10+ games next year and/or this team makes the playoffs, did he "figure it out"?

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4 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I mean... I'm not sure how that strengthens your stance.

First of all, this team was absolutely competing with Stafford. Saying otherwise is simply untrue, in my opinion. They had a 4th quarter lead in every single game they played with Stafford under center. They were flawed, absolutely, but undeniably competitive.

Are you arguing that you wouldn't have wanted Belichick? That it was right for CLE to fire him? I would've happily given Belichick 8 years of .500 football if I would've known he would develop into one of the best coaches in NFL history, and I think CLE would've done the same if they knew what we know now. Getting rid of a coach every two years that "hasn't figured it out", hoping that the guy you hire has magically figured it out, is a wonderful way to stay awful for a long time. (Using that logic, NE would've never hired Belichick because he had only proven that he "hadn't figured it out" based on his time in CLE.)

Please, answer me this: if Patricia wins 10+ games next year and/or this team makes the playoffs, did he "figure it out"?

Yes, Cleveland should have fired Belichick.  He wouldn’t have figured it out there.  He had chances, he had top draft picks and couldn’t figure it out.  He went and continued to learn under Parcells and that helped make him what he is today.  If we hired Belichick in 96, he probably last two or three years and gets fired again and never gets another shot. It’s unfortunate for Cleveland, but it was just the wrong time for him there.  
 

Patricia won’t develop here like he needs to. And likely won’t.  He will end up like every other lions coach who has failed to be a leader and develop the team.  It’s happened with every Belichick assistant.  It’s also happened with every coach that is hired too young.  Some continue learning and figure it out later in their careers.  But I’m not sitting around waiting, hoping that Patricia can figure it out without someone who can teach him.  

Bottom line, even if there are a couple exceptions, if you want to go by your standards. 2 current head coaches that have lasted longer than 2 seasons with a team had losing records in both of their first stops, then years later developed into really good NFL coaches.  Those odds are small to happen again.  I’ll play the odds that he is trash, like most every other coach that has losing records their first two years with a team. 

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2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

So what will your opinion of Patricia be if we finish with 10+ wins and/or make the playoffs next year?

What would your opinion be if they replaced him and the new guys finished with 10+ wins and/or make the playoffs next year?

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15 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

What would your opinion be if they replaced him and the new guys finished with 10+ wins and/or make the playoffs next year?

I'd look at all of the factors involved to decide how I feel about that coach, but I believe that Quinn and Patricia are tied at the hip, and that a new GM and coach would draft a QB 3rd overall.

Why won't any of you answer my question?

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20 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I'd look at all of the factors involved to decide how I feel about that coach, but I believe that Quinn and Patricia are tied at the hip, and that a new GM and coach would draft a QB 3rd overall.

Why won't any of you answer my question?

It's a ridiculous question.

Obviously every Lions fan wants the team to succeed. The VAST majority of us don't believe this regime will be the regime to get us there. Seeing as how ownership has said they'll be back next year, we'd all love to be proven wrong and see success in 2020. 

I can only speak for myself but I expect another season of garbage. My concern is BQ and MP will mortgage the future with the "win now" statements from ownership, still be garbage, and make a rebuild all the more difficult in 2021. 

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41 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

It's a ridiculous question.

Obviously every Lions fan wants the team to succeed. The VAST majority of us don't believe this regime will be the regime to get us there. Seeing as how ownership has said they'll be back next year, we'd all love to be proven wrong and see success in 2020. 

I can only speak for myself but I expect another season of garbage. My concern is BQ and MP will mortgage the future with the "win now" statements from ownership, still be garbage, and make a rebuild all the more difficult in 2021. 

Asking how others will view Patricia if he makes the playoffs next year is a ridiculous question?

Wow.

I'm suddenly reminded as to why I stopped coming around here.

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4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Asking how others will view Patricia if he makes the playoffs next year is a ridiculous question?

Wow.

I'm suddenly reminded as to why I stopped coming around here.

Why are you ignoring the substance of the post? I explained why it was a ridiculous question.

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1 hour ago, Nnivolcm said:

Why are you ignoring the substance of the post? I explained why it was a ridiculous question.

I simply failed to see the substance. "We'd love it if they were successful, but expect them to be garbage" doesn't answer how one would view Patricia if the Lions made the playoffs next year, a question that's both reasonable and revelant.

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16 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I simply failed to see the substance. "We'd love it if they were successful, but expect them to be garbage" doesn't answer how one would view Patricia if the Lions made the playoffs next year, a question that's both reasonable and revelant.

It's been said over and over by many here. We don't care who the Lions are successful with. We just want to see them become successful.

If, somehow, Patricia becomes successful next year (and beyond) I'd be happy to have been proven wrong about Quinn and Patricia.

The same could have been said in '07 and '08 with Millen and Marinelli. If the Lions would have been successful with them, I'd have been happy with their performance.

That is why your question is ridiculous. We'd all be thrilled with almost anybody who could make the Lions a good organization. 

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6 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

So what will your opinion of Patricia be if we finish with 10+ wins and/or make the playoffs next year?

This is a dumb question because it will not, can not, happen. You think I'm wrong, come on back a year from today and take your L.

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3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Asking how others will view Patricia if he makes the playoffs next year is a ridiculous question?

Wow.

I'm suddenly reminded as to why I stopped coming around here.

Oooooh what a sick burn. Mr. Blue Sky telling us off for having some degree of realism about the team and refusing to lick the boots for a 58th consecutive year. We're all mortified and ashamed of ourselves in the face of your perfect optimism. 

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