Week 17: Bears (7-8) at VIKINGS (10-5)

[JDBrocks]

3 hours ago, Torchezim said:

Sets us back how?  We aren’t doing anything anyway. You don’t really believe that our entry into the playoffs is going to go past the first game. You can’t...   We are a hardcore average team with a terrific Dalvin Cook as our Running Back.  While you think setting us back season after season is idiotic, you yourself come across that way when you absolutely refuse to see our flaws; flaws that have been there all year, and harped on every single time we play a good team. I am so damn sick and tired of Vikings fans being okay with mediocrity. Just accepting it because that’s who we are. No! Damn it, no! “We’re not that bad. You’re just a fair weather fan”, “Zimmer has won a lot of games”, “We are always competitive, where else are you going to find that?” — among many other reasonings I hear. It takes risks and a change in scenery when you’ve had 1 playoff win in 6 years with a head coach. And that win was on accident, and was a miracle.  
 

I’ve heard that we need a “bit more help” every single damn season and it’s beyond annoying and flat out willingly blind by fans like you.  We need a lot more than a bit more help. After 3 years you shouldn’t need a “bit more help”, you should have that team locked in and ready to compete for a championship. With health on your side, since that is a component to take into account, but in 3 - 4 years, you should be a Super Bowl contender. Then 5 - 6 years as a coach you should be as dominant and make consistent deep playoff runs like teams such as the Seahawks, Saints, Patriots, Steelers, etc. If you’re not, then changes need to be made. Almost any other fanbase would think this way. 
 

All those players you mentioned — while yes, they are STILL playing pretty well, they’re also STILL getting pretty old. So your statement regarding their performance doesn’t sway me either way. If their moved during a change then so be it   I do not believe we will ever win a Super Bowl with Zimmer   
 

I am not saying just tank for the best QB, but imo, should Zimmer be let go following this season? Yes, and whatever happens from there on is whatever. All I know is that we need to try something new. I like many MANY other Viking fans are ditching this specific Viking’s team   We are done   Why people like you refuse to admit to glaring holes in both the team and staff is just tedious to deal with when discussing options for the future   

That last paragraph makes sense and J can get on board with all of it, but Zimmer still has to go.  

Weren’t you the guy railing and carrying on about suppressing opinions and restricting opposing ideas? And now you want to call fans “idiotic” for disagreeing with your assessment of the team?

Pot, meet kettle.

[since72]

6 hours ago, Illadelegend215 said:

Our weakness is the oline by far. We need to chase after whoever the big money free agent linemen are and take build the line in the draft. No lie, if Kirk has just 3-4 seconds of a clean pocket on Monday, we blow them out. Also, those runs where Boone wasn’t explosive enough or strong enough to get the extra yards when he actually found a hole, Cook or mattison woulda went to work. Once we get some competent oline play we are good

Do we have money to chase after big money free agent linemen?

I don’t know.

Seems like we’ve spent the bank on extending or signing Cousins, Barr, Rudolph, etc., etc.  Not sure how many contracts can be restructured to free up more money.

It does get annoying when we’re one player / position away.  Every year someone lets us down.  LB,s, WR’s, DL, OL, DB’s.  Fix one, another falls apart.

So is the issue the GM when he’s constrained by the salary cap or is it a coaching issue where the coach is making the most of what he’s given???

Edited December 27, 2019 by since72

[Purplexing]

Cook and Mattison out for a tough game against a quality playoff bound team, a few OL not playing well, and a loss to GB that doesn't affect anything but playoff slotting... and it's the end of the world as we know it, so the talented players should be traded away for draft picks with uncertain production?!  Some such ideas, motivated by frustration, often lead to greater frustration.   

What might have happened if Cook and Mattison were available, and Aaron & Aaron were out?   Would that result in the same reaction .... that it's time to tear down to rebuild a talented team with unknown collegiate players.... drafted by Ten Pick Rick? 

[Torchezim]

2 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

Weren’t you the guy railing and carrying on about suppressing opinions and restricting opposing ideas? And now you want to call fans “idiotic” for disagreeing with your assessment of the team?

Pot, meet kettle.

Did you read his post and my response to him thoroughly? 
 

You’re the one guy here who has trouble reading.
 

Go back and read what he wrote. The words he said, and then read what I said.  There is a reason I avoid conversing with you.  With all due respect, and with how many times I’ve caught you not reading everything that was said, it feels a lot like trying to explain the Lord of the Rings (in full context) to a toddler.

Not once did I call someone idiotic for disagreeing with my view.  I simply stated why his statement of implying others were idiotic for their opinions shouldn’t be his go-to when there is plenty evidence to the point they’re bringing up. 
 

 

[vike daddy]

@Heimdallr @gopherwrestler

 

you're the mods of this forum, get a handle on this person to person insult crap. too much has been going on that's not about football and is about posters attacking other posters. be part of the solution here, it's what you signed up for and what is expected of you.

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

7 hours ago, vike daddy said:

@Heimdallr @gopherwrestler

 

you're the mods of this forum, get a handle on this person to person insult crap. too much has been going on that's not about football and is about posters attacking other posters. be part of the solution here, it's what you signed up for and what is expected of you.

I think it's time for you to dust off the old mod outfit and whip this town into shape.

[SemperFeist]

We have mods?

[Illadelegend215]

14 hours ago, Torchezim said:

Sets us back how?  We aren’t doing anything anyway. You don’t really believe that our entry into the playoffs is going to go past the first game. You can’t...   We are a hardcore average team with a terrific Dalvin Cook as our Running Back.  While you think setting us back season after season is idiotic, you yourself come across that way when you absolutely refuse to see our flaws; flaws that have been there all year, and harped on every single time we play a good team. I am so damn sick and tired of Vikings fans being okay with mediocrity. Just accepting it because that’s who we are. No! Damn it, no! “We’re not that bad. You’re just a fair weather fan”, “Zimmer has won a lot of games”, “We are always competitive, where else are you going to find that?” — among many other reasonings I hear. It takes risks and a change in scenery when you’ve had 1 playoff win in 6 years with a head coach. And that win was on accident, and was a miracle.  
 

I’ve heard that we need a “bit more help” every single damn season and it’s beyond annoying and flat out willingly blind by fans like you.  We need a lot more than a bit more help. After 3 years you shouldn’t need a “bit more help”, you should have that team locked in and ready to compete for a championship. With health on your side, since that is a component to take into account, but in 3 - 4 years, you should be a Super Bowl contender. Then 5 - 6 years as a coach you should be as dominant and make consistent deep playoff runs like teams such as the Seahawks, Saints, Patriots, Steelers, etc. If you’re not, then changes need to be made. Almost any other fanbase would think this way. 
 

All those players you mentioned — while yes, they are STILL playing pretty well, they’re also STILL getting pretty old. So your statement regarding their performance doesn’t sway me either way. If their moved during a change then so be it   I do not believe we will ever win a Super Bowl with Zimmer   
 

I am not saying just tank for the best QB, but imo, should Zimmer be let go following this season? Yes, and whatever happens from there on is whatever. All I know is that we need to try something new. I like many MANY other Viking fans are ditching this specific Viking’s team   We are done   Why people like you refuse to admit to glaring holes in both the team and staff is just tedious to deal with when discussing options for the future   

That last paragraph makes sense and J can get on board with all of it, but Zimmer still has to go.  

But what your asking for we have in hindsight. You want us to have a Super Bowl winning team with terrific players. We absolutely have what your asking for, it’s right in our face. Two young receivers that are studs, your claiming we should trade them? Guarantee we aren’t gonna find value at the receiver position that we have right now. Our weakness is our offensive line, that is the issue, the main issue. Defensively we played a hell of a game, we are actually top 7 defensively from what I have read. 

Saying that is idiotic is disrespectful and I do apologize for making you feel that way if I did, but blowing up a team that has the ability to win a Super Bowl just doesn’t seem realistic to me. We have all pro caliber weapons across the board on offense. We’ve got dogs on defense, (excluding the secondary). Hell if you rewatch that game on Monday, looo at what our defense did!? What came back to bite us, like basically every game that we have lost, is our TERRIBLE offensive line. 

[Torchezim]

30 minutes ago, Illadelegend215 said:

But what your asking for we have in hindsight. You want us to have a Super Bowl winning team with terrific players. We absolutely have what your asking for, it’s right in our face. Two young receivers that are studs, your claiming we should trade them? Guarantee we aren’t gonna find value at the receiver position that we have right now. Our weakness is our offensive line, that is the issue, the main issue. Defensively we played a hell of a game, we are actually top 7 defensively from what I have read. 

Saying that is idiotic is disrespectful and I do apologize for making you feel that way if I did, but blowing up a team that has the ability to win a Super Bowl just doesn’t seem realistic to me. We have all pro caliber weapons across the board on offense. We’ve got dogs on defense, (excluding the secondary). Hell if you rewatch that game on Monday, looo at what our defense did!? What came back to bite us, like basically every game that we have lost, is our TERRIBLE offensive line. 

I am not saying blow up everything.  I mean, if the vision of a new coach and front office IS to blow up everything because they see a brighter future down a different path then I can get behind that. Maybe Diggs and Thielen won’t like that and will want out but I think we would retain at least one of the two. Probably Diggs since Thielen is almost 30 years old. 
 

We have been shown time and time again that this specific Vikings team isn’t going to do anything noteworthy, other than a Miracle.  And that won’t happen twice. Six years, heck three years is FAR more than enough time to get a good look at what you have.  And while no, it isn’t terrible, it will always be an average team with a couple great players; players that cannot over come the inefficiencies elsewhere, whether it be the actual football team or the front office.
 

A few personnel within the Vikings organization (player or staff) shouldn’t have anymore leash. 
 

No one is saying that there doesn’t exist really good players on our roster, and no one is saying that we should  blow it up completely.  What we are, and what I am inferring, is that the one righting the ship has to be dispatched of. That along with a few others whose stubborn attitude towards building a team and the style of play they want to run hasn’t panned out.  I don’t care if we win games against bad teams but lose against good ones. That is the definition of average. 
 

Imo, following this seasons and when we are one and done out of the playoffs (though I’ll root for my Vikings and hope for the best), it’s time to select a few new faces for this team.
 

I’m tired of being the victim of imminent heartache as opposed to the feeling that a fan must have to support a consistent powerhouse. They may not win and/or attend the Championship every year but at least they’ve won it recently and it has become the norm for those teams to make deep playoff runs year in and year out, and you expect nothing less. 
 

[wcblack34]

Zimmer and Spielman aren’t going anywhere. Period. Coaches and GMs don’t get fired after 11-5 seasons that end in the playoffs. Stefanski probably stays on too. His offense has stalled in big time situations, and I don’t think he’s going to pull down a head coaching gig based on this season. 
 

Zimmer may sit key players this week. So that’s a built in excuse if we go 10-6  

The offensive line has pieces to build around, but I suspect they’ll have another rough day against Mack and the Bears. 

The secondary may bounce back due to the Bears having a bad QB and mid-level talent at WR and TE. 
 

Those two units need to be addressed in the offseason, but both have pieces to build around. If Cousins plays, and stinks up the joint like Monday, I suspect we will have to think very long and very hard about whether or not we want to draft his replacement this year. I understand the arguments for and against it, but we need his cap space in 2021 and beyond. So I’d lean towards allowing him to play out his contract and then letting him walk. If nothing else, he’ll get us a comp pick. 

[Torchezim]

6 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

Zimmer and Spielman aren’t going anywhere. Period. Coaches and GMs don’t get fired after 11-5 seasons that end in the playoffs. Stefanski probably stays on too. His offense has stalled in big time situations, and I don’t think he’s going to pull down a head coaching gig based on this season. 
 

Zimmer may sit key players this week. So that’s a built in excuse if we go 10-6  

The offensive line has pieces to build around, but I suspect they’ll have another rough day against Mack and the Bears. 

The secondary may bounce back due to the Bears having a bad QB and mid-level talent at WR and TE. 
 

Those two units need to be addressed in the offseason, but both have pieces to build around. If Cousins plays, and stinks up the joint like Monday, I suspect we will have to think very long and very hard about whether or not we want to draft his replacement this year. I understand the arguments for and against it, but we need his cap space in 2021 and beyond. So I’d lean towards allowing him to play out his contract and then letting him walk. If nothing else, he’ll get us a comp pick. 

If they’re one and done in the playoffs, yes they will.  I trust that the Wilfs aren’t ignorant to good football teams and see that we are not one. 
 

A different direction is needed. Not preferred. 

[Illadelegend215]

35 minutes ago, Torchezim said:

I am not saying blow up everything.  I mean, if the vision of a new coach and front office IS to blow up everything because they see a brighter future down a different path then I can get behind that. Maybe Diggs and Thielen won’t like that and will want out but I think we would retain at least one of the two. Probably Diggs since Thielen is almost 30 years old. 
 

We have been shown time and time again that this specific Vikings team isn’t going to do anything noteworthy, other than a Miracle.  And that won’t happen twice. Six years, heck three years is FAR more than enough time to get a good look at what you have.  And while no, it isn’t terrible, it will always be an average team with a couple great players; players that cannot over come the inefficiencies elsewhere, whether it be the actual football team or the front office.
 

A few personnel within the Vikings organization (player or staff) shouldn’t have anymore leash. 
 

No one is saying that there doesn’t exist really good players on our roster, and no one is saying that we should  blow it up completely.  What we are, and what I am inferring, is that the one righting the ship has to be dispatched of. That along with a few others whose stubborn attitude towards building a team and the style of play they want to run hasn’t panned out.  I don’t care if we win games against bad teams but lose against good ones. That is the definition of average. 
 

Imo, following this seasons and when we are one and done out of the playoffs (though I’ll root for my Vikings and hope for the best), it’s time to select a few new faces for this team.
 

I’m tired of being the victim of imminent heartache as opposed to the feeling that a fan must have to support a consistent powerhouse. They may not win and/or attend the Championship every year but at least they’ve won it recently and it has become the norm for those teams to make deep playoff runs year in and year out, and you expect nothing less. 
 

I feel where your coming from brother. Personally, I feel like all of our losses are coming from a lack of even average oline play. I also think coaching staff could use a revamping. For example, if we had the eagles offensive line, we put up like 30-40 points Monday. Our guys are getting open when they have time, it’s just our qb does not have the time to make any moves. Shoot even the great Lamar Jackson would struggle as he would have to do something terrifically amazing each drop back. Trust me, a competent oLine would have given us a victory against the bears back in week 4, packers on Monday, probably chiefs as well. Chiefs was more of an unlucky loss if anything, but we would be a powerhouse with average blocking.

 

 

[Nozizaki]

12 hours ago, Purplexing said:

Cook and Mattison out for a tough game against a quality playoff bound team, a few OL not playing well, and a loss to GB that doesn't affect anything but playoff slotting... and it's the end of the world as we know it, so the talented players should be traded away for draft picks with uncertain production?!  Some such ideas, motivated by frustration, often lead to greater frustration.   

What might have happened if Cook and Mattison were available, and Aaron & Aaron were out?   Would that result in the same reaction .... that it's time to tear down to rebuild a talented team with unknown collegiate players.... drafted by Ten Pick Rick? 

You're not wrong, but that game was huge for Kirk and Zimmer's "image". That game was the perfect spot for Kirk and Zim to kill some narratives: It was a home game, against the Vikings biggest rival, late in the season with playoff positioning on the line. And the bottom line is the Vikings as a team didn't answer that calling.

Now Vikings fans have to hear all about how Kirk is 0-9 on MNF, despite only 3 of those losses being as a Vikings (And he is now 4-2 on SNF). We have to hear on and on about how Zimmer can't win big games. And for a team that has the talent to be competeting for more, it is frustrating. I definitely don't think think it's time to trade the farm and start over, I think what the Vikings need is continuity. But it is beginning to feel like the Vikings are burning through their "window".

[since72]

1 hour ago, Torchezim said:

I’m tired of being the victim of imminent heartache as opposed to the feeling that a fan must have to support a consistent powerhouse. They may not win and/or attend the Championship every year but at least they’ve won it recently and it has become the norm for those teams to make deep playoff runs year in and year out, and you expect nothing less. 

It’s not realistic to have a powerhouse team consistently in the NFL, except a few teams like the New England Belichicks and the Philadelphia / Kansas City Reid’s.

On the other hand, it’s not realistic to have good personnel and stink up the joint every important prime time game.  Not even competitive.

Not just the Vikings, the North Stars, Wild, Timberwolves, Gophers football and basketball.  Big League choking every time they’re on the verge of any meaningful game.  Sure some people have the Browns and the Lions to suffer with but they also have Ohio State and Michigan.

The only Minnesota championship in my lifetime was the Twins.  They had a few stars but the also had a starter batting .190 on the year.  They had two quality pitchers while their opponents in the World Series had three or four.  They won because their coaches got the most out of the players and accented their strengths and compensated their weaknesses.  The players came ready to play and believed in themselves.  Fundamentally solid.

Oh, and they would not have won the Series in 1991 without perfectly pulling off the most critical Knoblauch deke play on Smith.  Attention to detail.  And Fundamentally solid.

Looking at that Elflein wiff play in the ZBS thread, I can’t say the offensive line has attention to detail or is fundamentally sound.  That’s coaching.

[since72]

1 hour ago, Torchezim said:

If they’re one and done in the playoffs, yes they will.  I trust that the Wilfs aren’t ignorant to good football teams and see that we are not one. 
 

A different direction is needed. Not preferred. 

Interesting comment.  I’m not sure I have that same trust in the Wilfs.  They are willing to spend money and make everything first class, but I don’t think they are necessarily football savvy.  I would be shocked if they fired Spielman or Zimmer.  They let Leslie Frazier be head coach for four years.