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Picking #3


Superduperman

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22 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Making the playoffs wasnt good enough 2 years ago, so 7 wins isnt good enough 3 years later.  No coaches that are successful have had three losing seasons to start there careers (none really have had two bad seasons to start).  Some go back to being assistants and then get another shot after learning and growing more, but I thats a risk you take.  Patricia doesnt have it, he still has a ton to learn as a coach in the league and I am not wanting him to learn on the job here.  

This team is essentially in year 2 of a rebuild. Top to bottom. Schwartz did a tremendous job bringing the team out from under the 0-16 shadow but he couldn't go any further. Caldwell inherited a team that was talented but undisciplined. He did great things with that team but couldn't get them over the hump. Patricia and Quinn are trying to remodel the team in the mold of the Patriots. They're trying to do things their way, for better or worse. So far it has been worse. Without Stafford's injury, this is a team that could easily have been 7-8-1 or 9 -6-1. 

You could be completely right on Patricia as a coach. You could also be completely wrong. I would take a 7-9 season with some close losses as a step forward but would only give them one extra year. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

The 49ers are built like the Lions want to play with a strong defense and a focus on the run. It just didn't work. They definitely have gaps to fill before they will legitimately be a better and more competitive team. 

I almost put what you said into one of the above posts.  However, I realized after two years, how poorly Quinn and Patricia implemented this thus far.  Offensively, they are no better than what they were when Schwartz, or Caldwell were here.  They still rely on Stafford to get the job done.  Defensively, they are worse than when Schwartz and when Caldwell were here.  So in my very small and simple brain, this would urge me more to remove these two than to urge me to keep them.

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46 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Making the playoffs wasnt good enough 2 years ago, so 7 wins isnt good enough 3 years later.  No coaches that are successful have had three losing seasons to start there careers (none really have had two bad seasons to start).  Some go back to being assistants and then get another shot after learning and growing more, but I thats a risk you take.  Patricia doesnt have it, he still has a ton to learn as a coach in the league and I am not wanting him to learn on the job here.  

Can we please bring Schwartz back?  I never was good with that firing.

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2 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I almost put what you said into one of the above posts.  However, I realized after two years, how poorly Quinn and Patricia implemented this thus far.  Offensively, they are no better than what they were when Schwartz, or Caldwell were here.  They still rely on Stafford to get the job done.  Defensively, they are worse than when Schwartz and when Caldwell were here.  So in my very small and simple brain, this would urge me more to remove these two then to urge me to keep them.

SCHWARTZ

2009 - 2-14

2010 - 6-10

2011 - 10-6 (Playoffs)

2012 - 4-12

2013 - 7-9

CALDWELL

2014 - 11-5 (Playoffs) w/ Suh and Calvin

2015 - 7-9 > Suh left for Mia

2016 - 9-7 (Playoffs) > Calvin retired

2017 - 9-7

Schwartz made the playoffs in his 3rd season. It's not out of the impossible for Patricia to do the same. Caldwell inherited a team with peak Stafford, Calvin, Ansah, Suh, Slay, et al. It was a different caliber of roster. 

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1 hour ago, LionArkie said:

Can we please bring Schwartz back?  I never was good with that firing.

I honestly want to see him get a job as a HC again. He was a bit high tempered and the team did reflect that. However, he did a pretty solid job bringing the team back from a historical low. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

SCHWARTZ

2009 - 2-14

2010 - 6-10

2011 - 10-6 (Playoffs)

2012 - 4-12

2013 - 7-9

CALDWELL

2014 - 11-5 (Playoffs) w/ Suh and Calvin

2015 - 7-9 > Suh left for Mia

2016 - 9-7 (Playoffs) > Calvin retired

2017 - 9-7

Schwartz made the playoffs in his 3rd season. It's not out of the impossible for Patricia to do the same. Caldwell inherited a team with peak Stafford, Calvin, Ansah, Suh, Slay, et al. It was a different caliber of roster. 

I was no fan of Caldwell and I agree, Caldwell had a much better team than Patricia does. There has been a complete roster overhaul since Quinn has taken over. Schwartz's teams got better every year except the last two. One could say he improved significantly from 2012 to 2013. I think Schwartz in 2014 would have done much better than Caldwell, but that's just speculation.

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4 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

This team is essentially in year 2 of a rebuild. Top to bottom. Schwartz did a tremendous job bringing the team out from under the 0-16 shadow but he couldn't go any further. Caldwell inherited a team that was talented but undisciplined. He did great things with that team but couldn't get them over the hump. Patricia and Quinn are trying to remodel the team in the mold of the Patriots. They're trying to do things their way, for better or worse. So far it has been worse. Without Stafford's injury, this is a team that could easily have been 7-8-1 or 9 -6-1. 

You could be completely right on Patricia as a coach. You could also be completely wrong. I would take a 7-9 season with some close losses as a step forward but would only give them one extra year. 

He wasn't hired to rebuild.mmhe was hired to get over the hump because we were good enough to not have to rebuild.  We were a playoff team that he has turned into a bottom 3 team in the league.  I have no patience for that. 

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5 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Making the playoffs wasnt good enough 2 years ago, so 7 wins isnt good enough 3 years later.  No coaches that are successful have had three losing seasons to start there careers (none really have had two bad seasons to start).  Some go back to being assistants and then get another shot after learning and growing more, but I thats a risk you take.  Patricia doesnt have it, he still has a ton to learn as a coach in the league and I am not wanting him to learn on the job here.  

I think this assumes two very speculative points:

1) Patricia doesn't have 'it'.

2) His replacement somehow might.

That course of action doesn't interest me, especially after the Lions lost their starting QB for half of the season. Before Stafford was injured, many posters on this forum were fully behind Patricia, both as a coach and in his 'plan'. One lost QB and 9 losses later and those same posters have written him off completely.

The truth is, these things often take time. Resetting the clock every few years gets this team no closer to being successful than allowing a GM/coach to build a contender the right way, not necessarily the fast way.

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4 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I think this assumes two very speculative points:

1) Patricia doesn't have 'it'.

2) His replacement somehow might.

That course of action doesn't interest me, especially after the Lions lost their starting QB for half of the season. Before Stafford was injured, many posters on this forum were fully behind Patricia, both as a coach and in his 'plan'. One lost QB and 9 losses later and those same posters have written him off completely.

The truth is, these things often take time. Resetting the clock every few years gets this team no closer to being successful than allowing a GM/coach to build a contender the right way, not necessarily the fast way.

But it’s the NFL, the fast way really is the only way.  Again, there are no examples of someone failing for years and suddenly improving.  I will gladly take the chance we get the next McVay/Vrabel/etc then continue with someone I have no confidence in.  You see the Senior Bowl practices today?  Patricia has three days to find out some inside info on these kids and he spends most of the day on conditioning and stretching.  He’s an idiot, he can’t manage a game and although he had people excited early, he still doesn’t know how to close out a game, he doesn’t adapt in game, and still had a losing record with Stafford.  

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8 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

But it’s the NFL, the fast way really is the only way.  Again, there are no examples of someone failing for years and suddenly improving.  I will gladly take the chance we get the next McVay/Vrabel/etc then continue with someone I have no confidence in.  You see the Senior Bowl practices today?  Patricia has three days to find out some inside info on these kids and he spends most of the day on conditioning and stretching.  He’s an idiot, he can’t manage a game and although he had people excited early, he still doesn’t know how to close out a game, he doesn’t adapt in game, and still had a losing record with Stafford.  

No examples? So you believe Kyle Shanahan doesn't have "it" and should have been fired after last year?

In his first year, Shanahan's 49ers went 6-10. The same record as Patricia. In his second year, Shanahan's 49ers finished 4-12 (after losing their starting QB early in the season). Patricia went 3-12-1. One defensive player, and a healthy quarterback, brought that team from 4-12 to a 13-3 record and the Super Bowl. Of course, you would've concluded that his time was over after his second season because "the fast way really is the only way".

Then there's legends like Bill Walsh and **** Vermeil, who both struggled mightily during their first two seasons, Walsh with a 8-24 record and Vermeil with a 9-23. (Bill Walsh is in the Hall of Fame.)

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55 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

No examples? So you believe Kyle Shanahan doesn't have "it" and should have been fired after last year?

In his first year, Shanahan's 49ers went 6-10. The same record as Patricia. In his second year, Shanahan's 49ers finished 4-12 (after losing their starting QB early in the season). Patricia went 3-12-1. One defensive player, and a healthy quarterback, brought that team from 4-12 to a 13-3 record and the Super Bowl. Of course, you would've concluded that his time was over after his second season because "the fast way really is the only way".

Then there's legends like Bill Walsh and **** Vermeil, who both struggled mightily during their first two seasons, Walsh with a 8-24 record and Vermeil with a 9-23. (Bill Walsh is in the Hall of Fame.)

I will look at all factors when doing this, and realize there are trajectories involved in the three examples you have provided (which three examples in history isnt all that great to go on.  Hoping for the exception as opposed to the rule is a good way to continue failing). 

Bill Walsh took over a team that was 2-14, 5 games the year before that. After his first year he also went 2-14, the team went 5-11, then drafted Joe Montana which changed the trajectory.   Still, he had three years and was in a SB.  So Patricia has a lot to live up to if he is going to take our 9-7 team to a 6-10 team to a 3-12-1 team and then reverse course to a winner. 

Kyle Shannahan also took over a team void of talent that had gone 5-11 and 2-14 the years before he got there.  Again, they found Jimmy G midway through his first year, lost him very early his second year but the team showed improvement.  Again, building something as opposed to taking over a solid team is different, but also he turned them into a Sb team in three years, so Patricia has a lot to try and live up to another one of these three exceptions. 

Vermeil I am not as high on.  I think he was a below average coach that found an exception (a grocery store clerk that somehow turns into the best QB in the league overnight).  If we can find one of those, great, but I am not holding my breath.  

Patricia can have this year, I wouldnt give it to him because he hasn't shown me anything to make me think he will continue in the right direction.  But either way, he needs to be in the playoffs and at least win a game this year for it to be a success.  If not, I am moving on from him. 

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10 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

But it’s the NFL, the fast way really is the only way.  Again, there are no examples of someone failing for years and suddenly improving.  I will gladly take the chance we get the next McVay/Vrabel/etc then continue with someone I have no confidence in.  You see the Senior Bowl practices today?  Patricia has three days to find out some inside info on these kids and he spends most of the day on conditioning and stretching.  He’s an idiot, he can’t manage a game and although he had people excited early, he still doesn’t know how to close out a game, he doesn’t adapt in game, and still had a losing record with Stafford.  

Haven't been watching, but seriously, this is what is going on?

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