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2019/2020 Offseason


Bobby816

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1 hour ago, Bobby816 said:

What about the idea of trading up to 9 to make sure we get the OT we want? I mean if we really think they’re a franchise OT for us why not give up a 4th to jump CLE?

Reasonable. I’m pretty sure we’ll have contingencies in place when guys begin dropping. 

Bears jumped the Giants for Floyd a few years back from 11 to 9 for a 4th as you stated so it has some merit.

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13 hours ago, xrade said:

We can build an OL with FA and mid round picks?  Isn’t that what we have been doing since Mangold and Dbrick?  How has that worked for us?

Same could be said about our record on drafting receivers/tight ends.

Just because it hasn't worked doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are only two teams in the playoffs that have more than two first round picks on their OL (HOU, NO), and only one drafted two of them (NO) and most drafted that #1 just this year. Dallas who has the most #1s drafted didn't even make the playoffs and went 8-8.

Offensive line production can be coached (see NE), but you can't coach a nobody into top tier WR. All but two of the playoff teams (NE, BUF) this year had a trusty #1 option - and yes, while many were drafted in later rounds why continue to roll the dice when you have a surefire stud like Jeudy? If he falls to us, he's clearly the best talent by BPA.

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1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said:

Same could be said about our record on drafting receivers/tight ends.

Just because it hasn't worked doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are only two teams in the playoffs that have more than two first round picks on their OL (HOU, NO), and only one drafted two of them (NO) and most drafted that #1 just this year. Dallas who has the most #1s drafted didn't even make the playoffs and went 8-8.

Offensive line production can be coached (see NE), but you can't coach a nobody into top tier WR. All but two of the playoff teams (NE, BUF) this year had a trusty #1 option - and yes, while many were drafted in later rounds why continue to roll the dice when you have a surefire stud like Jeudy? If he falls to us, he's clearly the best talent by BPA.

I'm pro OT in Round 1... but I see what you're saying. I've been pounding the table to spend valuable picks at WR for years with no luck. Theres reasons players are ranked higher than others. Does that mean that "experts" cant get it wrong. Or they maybe do actually really really like guys, but the guys ahead of them they just rate higher. Think the 2014 draft. Loaded class. Like this one. I dont think anyone would argue that Jeudy, Lamb and Ruggs arent as talented as Watkins, Evans OBJ. Thats how I had my board that year in the order they came out. And it continued right when Cooks was the next WR taken. Where it went off the rail a bit was Benjamin next of the WR group. Who I liked, but knew he was a risk. Which then took us to Round 2 where I actually really liked most these guys taken in Round 2 at WR if anyone on here remembers. I was a very big Matthews, Adams, Robinson an Landry fan that year. Was very pissed we drafted Amaro (and I'm a TTU alum). This class often gets compared to this class bc all the talent deep in the draft. Yet no one talks about the misses in the draft at WR. People on here who pound the table to not get a WR in Round 1 (meaning Jeudy or Lamb) arent taken into consideration of the risk of drafting a fail later in the draft.

28th: Kelvin Benjamin didnt live up to his draft spot

39th: Marquise Lee disappointing career

42nd: Jordan Matthews started out good and then injuries killed his career.

45th: Paul Richardson a disappointing career

56th: Cory Latimer with a disappointing career

86th: Josh Huff with a disappointing career

97th: Dri Archer with a disappointing career

and lets not forget about our own awful picks of Jalen Saunders (104) and Shaq Evans (115) with no career really.

 

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2 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

Same could be said about our record on drafting receivers/tight ends.

Just because it hasn't worked doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are only two teams in the playoffs that have more than two first round picks on their OL (HOU, NO), and only one drafted two of them (NO) and most drafted that #1 just this year. Dallas who has the most #1s drafted didn't even make the playoffs and went 8-8.

Offensive line production can be coached (see NE), but you can't coach a nobody into top tier WR. All but two of the playoff teams (NE, BUF) this year had a trusty #1 option - and yes, while many were drafted in later rounds why continue to roll the dice when you have a surefire stud like Jeudy? If he falls to us, he's clearly the best talent by BPA.

I do think you can build an offensive line without any first round picks, but you have to at least have a few stable veteran starters in order to allow for those that you draft in Day 2 and Day 3 to develop- they need support and on-field guidance as they begin to adjust on the fly. What makes it difficult for us to do that? Currently we have *checks roster* *takes out magnifying glass* TWO players who (a) have spent more than two years in the league; and (b) has over 16 starts in their career. Those players? Jonotthan Harrison and Brian Winters (likely to be cut). The remaining two on the roster are Edoga and McDermott. Sure, we have guys who we can bring back (namely Kelvin Beachum and Alex Lewis, a career backup) but are they really the answer? I think they have value, but they're more hole-filling players, not "build around these players" kind of unit. 

Ultimately, I think Douglas wants to build this line without a bunch of 1st orund picks. He wants to create a pipeline so that each year he's finding guys in day 2 and day 3 that we can draft, develop, and replace the next guy (like we see in Baltimore). Unfortunately, when you're starting with nothing you're not afforded that opportunity. Need to fix the line now by pumping in resources, then hopefully 3-5 years down the road from now we're constantly inserting new names but maintaining a high level of play. 

 

Now, I'm sorry for the hole I'm about to rip into your whole "playoff teams don't have more than 2 1st round picks in OL" argument because I'm about to rip this take a new one. 

Team: Starters/Total Rostered (Name, Team drafted by #overall --- italics for players drafted by another team

  • San Francisco 49ers: 3/3 (Joe Staley, SF #28; Mike McGlinchey, SF #9; Laken Tomlinson, DET #28
  • Kansas City Chiefs: 1/2 (Eric Fisher, KC #1 overall; Cam Erving, CLE #19
  • Green Bay Packers: 1/1 (Bryan Bulaga, GB #23) 
  • Tennessee Titans: 2/2 (Taylor Lewan, TEN #11; Jack Conklin, TEN #8) 
  • Houston Texans: 2/2 (Tytus Howard, HOU #23; Laremy Tunsil, MIA #13
  • Seattle Seahawks: 4/4 (Germain Ifedi, SEA #31; Duane Brown, HOU #26; DJ Fluker, SD #11; Mike Iupati, SF #17)
  • Baltimore Ravens: 1/2 (Ronnie Stanley, BAL #9; Andre Smith, CIN #6)
  • Minnesota Vikings: 2/2 (Garrett Bradbury, MIN #18; Riley Reiff, DET #23
  • New Orleans Saints: 2/2 (Andrus Peat, NO #13; Ryan Ramczyk, NO #32) 
  • New England Patriots: 1/1 (Isaiah Wynn, NE #23) 
  • Philadelphia Eagles: 1/2 (Lane Johnson, PHI #4; Andre Dillard, PHI #22) 
  • Buffalo Bills: 0 

To Recap (out of 12 playoff teams): 

  • 12 playoff teams had at least one former 1st or 2nd round pick in their starting lineup (BUF had 3). 
  • 11 playoff teams had at least 1 1st round pick that they themselves drafted and are a starter. 
  • 9 playoff teams had 2 or more former 1st round lineman on their roster. 
  • 6 playoff teams had 2 or more former 1st round picks starting on their line. 
  • 4 playoff teams had at least 2 1st round lineman that they themselves drafted. 
  • 3 playoff teams had at least 2 1st round lineman that they themselves drafted and are starters. 
  • 2 playoff teams had 3 or more former 1st round lineman in their starting lineup. 

 

Now, lets take a look at our beloved Jets... 

How many 1st round picks (either drafted by the Jets or by another team) did the Jets have on their offensive line?

ZERO. 

How many former 2nd round picks?

ZERO. 

I rest my case. 

 

As far as not being able to coach a "nobody" into a top tier WR... I can honestly tear this apart as well but I have studying to do so it'll have to wait. 

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15 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

I do think you can build an offensive line without any first round picks, but you have to at least have a few stable veteran starters in order to allow for those that you draft in Day 2 and Day 3 to develop- they need support and on-field guidance as they begin to adjust on the fly. What makes it difficult for us to do that? Currently we have *checks roster* *takes out magnifying glass* TWO players who (a) have spent more than two years in the league; and (b) has over 16 starts in their career. Those players? Jonotthan Harrison and Brian Winters (likely to be cut). The remaining two on the roster are Edoga and McDermott. Sure, we have guys who we can bring back (namely Kelvin Beachum and Alex Lewis, a career backup) but are they really the answer? I think they have value, but they're more hole-filling players, not "build around these players" kind of unit. 

Ultimately, I think Douglas wants to build this line without a bunch of 1st orund picks. He wants to create a pipeline so that each year he's finding guys in day 2 and day 3 that we can draft, develop, and replace the next guy (like we see in Baltimore). Unfortunately, when you're starting with nothing you're not afforded that opportunity. Need to fix the line now by pumping in resources, then hopefully 3-5 years down the road from now we're constantly inserting new names but maintaining a high level of play. 

 

Now, I'm sorry for the hole I'm about to rip into your whole "playoff teams don't have more than 2 1st round picks in OL" argument because I'm about to rip this take a new one. 

Team: Starters/Total Rostered (Name, Team drafted by #overall --- italics for players drafted by another team

  • San Francisco 49ers: 3/3 (Joe Staley, SF #28; Mike McGlinchey, SF #9; Laken Tomlinson, DET #28
  • Kansas City Chiefs: 1/2 (Eric Fisher, KC #1 overall; Cam Erving, CLE #19
  • Green Bay Packers: 1/1 (Bryan Bulaga, GB #23) 
  • Tennessee Titans: 2/2 (Taylor Lewan, TEN #11; Jack Conklin, TEN #8) 
  • Houston Texans: 2/2 (Tytus Howard, HOU #23; Laremy Tunsil, MIA #13
  • Seattle Seahawks: 4/4 (Germain Ifedi, SEA #31; Duane Brown, HOU #26; DJ Fluker, SD #11; Mike Iupati, SF #17)
  • Baltimore Ravens: 1/2 (Ronnie Stanley, BAL #9; Andre Smith, CIN #6)
  • Minnesota Vikings: 2/2 (Garrett Bradbury, MIN #18; Riley Reiff, DET #23
  • New Orleans Saints: 2/2 (Andrus Peat, NO #13; Ryan Ramczyk, NO #32) 
  • New England Patriots: 1/1 (Isaiah Wynn, NE #23) 
  • Philadelphia Eagles: 1/2 (Lane Johnson, PHI #4; Andre Dillard, PHI #22) 
  • Buffalo Bills: 0 

To Recap (out of 12 playoff teams): 

  • 12 playoff teams had at least one former 1st or 2nd round pick in their starting lineup (BUF had 3). 
  • 11 playoff teams had at least 1 1st round pick that they themselves drafted and are a starter. 
  • 9 playoff teams had 2 or more former 1st round lineman on their roster. 
  • 6 playoff teams had 2 or more former 1st round picks starting on their line. 
  • 4 playoff teams had at least 2 1st round lineman that they themselves drafted. 
  • 3 playoff teams had at least 2 1st round lineman that they themselves drafted and are starters. 
  • 2 playoff teams had 3 or more former 1st round lineman in their starting lineup. 

First, "there are only two teams in the playoffs that have more than two first round picks on their OL" does not equal "playoff teams don't have more than 2 1st round picks in OL". I was more than forward with the stats and missed Staley on SF because he didn't log the full season so PFR didn't put him in the roster sheet (SF went 7-0 without him by the way).

And, yes, we don't have a 1st round OL or even a 2nd round, but in your list if 1st round OLs on playoff teams, you can see how many are actually traded/hit FA. Top tier WRs rarely go on the move unless they have some real issues behind the scenes or they pass their prime. There's top OL moving every season, and frankly it's because it's a numbers game. There are 3 (5 if you want to be all "playing left is world's away from playing right") starting OL position, but there's only one #1 WR on every team. So there should be 3x as many top tier OL available as top tier WR in FA/Trade Block, making a top tier WR more valuable.

Look, I can get behind a Thomas, Wills, or Whirfs pick. But I want Juedy if he's there. Our last great WR was an aging Marshall, before that Braylon Edwards. Time to grab a Julio Jones for Sam to grow with.

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I'm torn on what I'd want us to do if we resigned Beachum and added Jack Conklin. I've seen some say we are high on Edoga still and could see him as a starting OT as well (meaning we dont think he's ready, and thats why we resign Beachum for a year). If that is true and happens than what do people want to do in the draft? Still grab an OT? Or is it at that point the haters of a 1st Round WR on here jump ship to being good with it.

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42 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

First, "there are only two teams in the playoffs that have more than two first round picks on their OL" does not equal "playoff teams don't have more than 2 1st round picks in OL". I was more than forward with the stats and missed Staley on SF because he didn't log the full season so PFR didn't put him in the roster sheet (SF went 7-0 without him by the way).

And, yes, we don't have a 1st round OL or even a 2nd round, but in your list if 1st round OLs on playoff teams, you can see how many are actually traded/hit FA. Top tier WRs rarely go on the move unless they have some real issues behind the scenes or they pass their prime. There's top OL moving every season, and frankly it's because it's a numbers game. There are 3 (5 if you want to be all "playing left is world's away from playing right") starting OL position, but there's only one #1 WR on every team. So there should be 3x as many top tier OL available as top tier WR in FA/Trade Block, making a top tier WR more valuable.

Look, I can get behind a Thomas, Wills, or Whirfs pick. But I want Juedy if he's there. Our last great WR was an aging Marshall, before that Braylon Edwards. Time to grab a Julio Jones for Sam to grow with.

1. Wirfs* 

2. Jeudy is not some special can’t pass prospect. 

3. Your receiver logic makes no sense. I’m all for drafting receivers, but it’s a luxury position. 

4. You’re pitting yourself into a corner with this. Each team has 3 WRs starting WRs, just as each team has 5 OL. For the sake of your argument and time, we’ll isolate this argument to tackles only. Like you said it’s a numbers game, so let’s use numbers. PFF is no gospel, but for the sake of time: of their 20 top graded WRs this year: 6 were 1st round picks. Only one of those WRs was on a winning team and that same player was the only one who played in the playoffs this year. 

Compare that to their top 15 graded tackles (to account for the 3 vs 2 deficiency): 9 were former 1st round picks, 8 of which played in the playoffs. If we increase that number to include their top 20: 12 former 1st round picks, 9 in the playoffs. 
 

I don’t understand why this is so hard for fans to comprehend: WR IS A LUXURY POSITION, NOT A PREMIUM POSITION! If you have everything else filled, then absolutely go draft a WR, but most teams are far from being that. If you don’t take my word for it, seek out and ask any GM, scout, analyst, agent, or coach and have them tell you. I’m all for drafting 2 WRs every single year, but almost every study one can point to shows that having a bonafide #1 WR or investing significant assets into the position are not going to net you more success the way investing top resources into an OL will. Honestly I hope that one day I have the time and ability to put together a report to emphasize why OL > skill positions. It’s bafoonery that anyone else on this board thinks differently. 

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9 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

1. Wirfs* 

2. Jeudy is not some special can’t pass prospect. 

3. Your receiver logic makes no sense. I’m all for drafting receivers, but it’s a luxury position. 

4. You’re pitting yourself into a corner with this. Each team has 3 WRs starting WRs, just as each team has 5 OL. For the sake of your argument and time, we’ll isolate this argument to tackles only. Like you said it’s a numbers game, so let’s use numbers. PFF is no gospel, but for the sake of time: of their 20 top graded WRs this year: 6 were 1st round picks. Only one of those WRs was on a winning team and that same player was the only one who played in the playoffs this year. 

Compare that to their top 15 graded tackles (to account for the 3 vs 2 deficiency): 9 were former 1st round picks, 8 of which played in the playoffs. If we increase that number to include their top 20: 12 former 1st round picks, 9 in the playoffs. 
 

I don’t understand why this is so hard for fans to comprehend: WR IS A LUXURY POSITION, NOT A PREMIUM POSITION! If you have everything else filled, then absolutely go draft a WR, but most teams are far from being that. If you don’t take my word for it, seek out and ask any GM, scout, analyst, agent, or coach and have them tell you. I’m all for drafting 2 WRs every single year, but almost every study one can point to shows that having a bonafide #1 WR or investing significant assets into the position are not going to net you more success the way investing top resources into an OL will. Honestly I hope that one day I have the time and ability to put together a report to emphasize why OL > skill positions. It’s bafoonery that anyone else on this board thinks differently. 

Totally get what you're saying and I dont disagree for the most part. What I have said to you and others that I stand by still is the argument that all these successful QBs dont need a great WR. Which I disagree with. Future HOF and or great current QBs in the NFL have that ability to make the players around them better. Darnold is not at that level. For comparison Mahomes was doing that in his 2nd year and Darnold wasnt doing that this year. I think Darnold is a franchise QB for us. But we cant give him average talent weapons bc other teams with GREAT QBs win without great weapons. When Darnold is proven to make the players around him better and win as perennial playoff contenders I'll absolutely revisit this and happily say we dont need to spend assets at WR. But that time is not this offseason. You know my stance is to go OT in Round 1. Theres a very unlikely situations where I would want a WR at 11 (we big time upgrade the OL where we dont need one) Which is very unlikely. But you better believe I want 2 of our next 4 picks used on a WR unless something happens big in the FA at the position to upgrade us there.

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36 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

1. Wirfs* 

2. Jeudy is not some special can’t pass prospect. 

3. Your receiver logic makes no sense. I’m all for drafting receivers, but it’s a luxury position. 

4. You’re pitting yourself into a corner with this. Each team has 3 WRs starting WRs, just as each team has 5 OL. For the sake of your argument and time, we’ll isolate this argument to tackles only. Like you said it’s a numbers game, so let’s use numbers. PFF is no gospel, but for the sake of time: of their 20 top graded WRs this year: 6 were 1st round picks. Only one of those WRs was on a winning team and that same player was the only one who played in the playoffs this year. 

Compare that to their top 15 graded tackles (to account for the 3 vs 2 deficiency): 9 were former 1st round picks, 8 of which played in the playoffs. If we increase that number to include their top 20: 12 former 1st round picks, 9 in the playoffs. 
 

I don’t understand why this is so hard for fans to comprehend: WR IS A LUXURY POSITION, NOT A PREMIUM POSITION! If you have everything else filled, then absolutely go draft a WR, but most teams are far from being that. If you don’t take my word for it, seek out and ask any GM, scout, analyst, agent, or coach and have them tell you. I’m all for drafting 2 WRs every single year, but almost every study one can point to shows that having a bonafide #1 WR or investing significant assets into the position are not going to net you more success the way investing top resources into an OL will. Honestly I hope that one day I have the time and ability to put together a report to emphasize why OL > skill positions. It’s bafoonery that anyone else on this board thinks differently. 

Receivers at the #2 and #3 positions are rarely considered top tier receivers, while you can have top OL at OT, C and OG - more if you make it LT, LG, C, RG, RT.

I don't have PFF so I used this article: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-top-offensive-linemen-rankings-through-week-5

Less than ideal, but I doubt the final listing is much different.

  • 3/7 1st round Tackles (also the only 3 of the full 10 listed) were acquired by their current teams through FA or trade.
  • 2/10 of the Guards listed were FA or trade acquisitions. 4/10 were first round draft picks - two of which are still on rookie deals (and Scherff might walk).
  • 3/10 Centers were FA or trade acquisitions and only one of those 10 was a 1st round pick.

So out of the 30 listed: Yes, 40% (12/30) were first round picks but 26% (8/30) are on a team that didn't draft them.

 

Now look at this list of top receivers: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-nfl-wide-receiver-rankings-week-9-2019

Six were first round picks (25%) and seven were acquired in trade or FA (28%) which, on the surface, defeats my argument but like look who it was - Amari, Sanders, Jones Jr, John Brown, ARob, Tate, Woods. Most these guys are tiers below guys like Julio, Hopkins, and Thomas; and that's the talent I am discussing when I talk about a true #1 receiver.

 

I'm not understating the value of OL. I'm arguing the value of drafting OL in the first round vs drafting an elite WR. You can nab a top 5 lineman in FA, but a top 5 WR rarely ever moves. I think Jeudy is a can't-miss, elite prospect and it's be a while since the draft had one of those. Meanwhile, every draft in recent memory has been able to turn up a few solid OL starters. Very rarely do teams get a clear shot at the next AJ Green.

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19 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

Receivers at the #2 and #3 positions are rarely considered top tier receivers, while you can have top OL at OT, C and OG - more if you make it LT, LG, C, RG, RT.

I don't have PFF so I used this article: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-top-offensive-linemen-rankings-through-week-5

Less than ideal, but I doubt the final listing is much different.

  • 3/7 1st round Tackles (also the only 3 of the full 10 listed) were acquired by their current teams through FA or trade.
  • 2/10 of the Guards listed were FA or trade acquisitions. 4/10 were first round draft picks - two of which are still on rookie deals (and Scherff might walk).
  • 3/10 Centers were FA or trade acquisitions and only one of those 10 was a 1st round pick.

So out of the 30 listed: Yes, 40% (12/30) were first round picks but 26% (8/30) are on a team that didn't draft them.

 

Now look at this list of top receivers: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-nfl-wide-receiver-rankings-week-9-2019

Six were first round picks (25%) and seven were acquired in trade or FA (28%) which, on the surface, defeats my argument but like look who it was - Amari, Sanders, Jones Jr, John Brown, ARob, Tate, Woods. Most these guys are tiers below guys like Julio, Hopkins, and Thomas; and that's the talent I am discussing when I talk about a true #1 receiver.

 

I'm not understating the value of OL. I'm arguing the value of drafting OL in the first round vs drafting an elite WR. You can nab a top 5 lineman in FA, but a top 5 WR rarely ever moves. I think Jeudy is a can't-miss, elite prospect and it's be a while since the draft had one of those. Meanwhile, every draft in recent memory has been able to turn up a few solid OL starters. Very rarely do teams get a clear shot at the next AJ Green.

Let’s not forget every time this this team is good. We have good WRs. 

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2 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

Totally get what you're saying and I dont disagree for the most part. What I have said to you and others that I stand by still is the argument that all these successful QBs dont need a great WR. Which I disagree with. Show evidence/backup this statement. Future HOF and or great current QBs in the NFL have that ability to make the players around them better. Darnold is not at that level. For comparison Mahomes was doing that in his 2nd year and Darnold wasnt doing that this year. Ever consider that the Chiefs have been among the post efficient OL in the NFL for the past 4 seasons? Even their reserve OLs have played at a league-average rate. I think Darnold is a franchise QB for us. But we cant give him average talent weapons bc other teams with GREAT QBs win without great weapons. Darnold is 22 years old and entering his 3rd season. You're comparing him with "great" players who have elevated the skill position groups around them, but you fail to acknowledge that these same "great" QBs had or have league average-to-great offensive lines. Per PFF metrics, which I'm aware is not gospel but is a better source of determining a player's efficiency than standard stats are, the Jets top skill position players were all rated between "Average" (Ryan Griffin/Vyncint Smith" to "Above Average" (Robby Anderson/Demaryius Thomas) to "High Quality" (Jamison Crowder/Le'Veon Bell). All for adding more weapons via the draft every single year, but Sam had enough of them in 2019... what he didn't have was an offensive line. When Darnold is proven to make the players around him better and win as perennial playoff contenders I'll absolutely revisit this and happily say we dont need to spend assets at WR. Did you watch his last 4 games in 2018 and see who he was throwing to? He was the leagues top rated QB over that span with a skill group consisting of Robby Anderson, Jermaine Kearse, Andre Roberts, Chris Herndon, and Eli McGuire. But that time is not this offseason. It still can be; 2nd and 3rd round picks are assets. $5-9m per year contracts are assets. The Jets can absolutely use resources to totally overhaul the position, but they simply need to address the more important ones first. You know my stance is to go OT in Round 1. Theres a very unlikely situations where I would want a WR at 11 (we big time upgrade the OL where we dont need one) Which is very unlikely. You've made this clear. What is not being accepted is the fact that WR is a luxury position in many ways. A good OL/good QB is what makes an offense function; while it is preferred to have great players at the skill positions - just as you would hope to have good players at every position - history shows you can put in replacement level players at RB/TE/WR and still generate offense. But you better believe I want 2 of our next 4 picks used on a WR unless something happens big in the FA at the position to upgrade us there. Wanting is subjective. I want them to spend 3 picks on WRs in rounds 2, 3, and 4. However, objectively speaking, the team does not "need" to do this in order to be an adequate, successful skill position group in 2020. 

 

23 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

Receivers at the #2 and #3 positions are rarely considered top tier receivers, while you can have top OL at OT, C and OG - more if you make it LT, LG, C, RG, RT.

I don't have PFF so

Do you even know what you are saying? Labeling receivers as #1/#2/#3 is so inappropriate. Every team has a different "#1" receiver at a different position, whether its an X/Y/slot. Teams invest all levels of draft capital into all different kinds of receivers. The best kind of receivers can play all 3 spots, but labelling them "#2" and "#3" is just a poor way of delineating. 

I do have PFF elite, and the final rankings are in fact much different than those posted in week 5. The WR rankings are as well. 

Finally, Jeudy is a very good player, an awesome one a that, but let's not anoint him to be "can't miss". He is not the prospect that AJ Green/Julio Jones were by any means. His ceiling is a less-acrobatic but less of a diva Odell Beckham, his floor is Sammy Watkins. Purely in a vacuum, Becton, Wills, Wirfs are all right there with him in the range of being the 8th-14th best players in the draft- there really isn't much talent discrepancy between them and Jeudy other than Jeudy plays a position that's flashy, is fun to use in madden, and looks good on a stat sheet, but that's not to say the OL prospects aren't every bit as talented, if not more, at their respective positions, which also happen to be more important. It's the best crop of 1st round OL we've seen since 2016, which is among the best I've ever seen. 

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33 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Let’s not forget every time this this team is good. We have good WRs. 

Every year you mention where we had "good WRs", we also had the best offensive line in football.

In 2015, we were a very stable offensive line as well. Brick was still a good pass protector but struggled against the run, James Carpenter/Nick Mangold had good years, Winters significantly improved, and Breno Giacomini was our weakest link. 2016? D'Brickashaw retired/Ryan Clady predictably got injured, Mangold missed 8 games, and what do you know, our WRs and Ryan Fitzpatrick significantly regressed. I wonder why...

 

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7 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

Do you even know what you are saying? Labeling receivers as #1/#2/#3 is so inappropriate. Every team has a different "#1" receiver at a different position, whether its an X/Y/slot. Teams invest all levels of draft capital into all different kinds of receivers. The best kind of receivers can play all 3 spots, but labelling them "#2" and "#3" is just a poor way of delineating.

Nah man, #1 means clearly the best target on the team to me. That's the go to Calvin Johnson on the team and clearly communicates the best from the rest. I don't care where they line up, I care about how well they play receiver. John Brown is not a true #1 because he'd play second fiddle on half the team in the NFL - third on teams like Houston and Vikings.

And it looks like our differences come down to perceived talent. I think Jeudy is a tier above the past few WR draft prospects and you don't. You think the top OL in this draft are a tier above the past few drafts - I don't. Add in that I believe it's easier to acquire top OL through FA than it is WR and you get my full reasoning for going Jeudy first round.

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2 hours ago, jetskid007 said:

 

Do you even know what you are saying? Labeling receivers as #1/#2/#3 is so inappropriate. Every team has a different "#1" receiver at a different position, whether its an X/Y/slot. Teams invest all levels of draft capital into all different kinds of receivers. The best kind of receivers can play all 3 spots, but labelling them "#2" and "#3" is just a poor way of delineating. 

I do have PFF elite, and the final rankings are in fact much different than those posted in week 5. The WR rankings are as well. 

Finally, Jeudy is a very good player, an awesome one a that, but let's not anoint him to be "can't miss". He is not the prospect that AJ Green/Julio Jones were by any means. His ceiling is a less-acrobatic but less of a diva Odell Beckham, his floor is Sammy Watkins. Purely in a vacuum, Becton, Wills, Wirfs are all right there with him in the range of being the 8th-14th best players in the draft- there really isn't much talent discrepancy between them and Jeudy other than Jeudy plays a position that's flashy, is fun to use in madden, and looks good on a stat sheet, but that's not to say the OL prospects aren't every bit as talented, if not more, at their respective positions, which also happen to be more important. It's the best crop of 1st round OL we've seen since 2016, which is among the best I've ever seen. 

Evidence to back it up? Peyton Manning had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne most his career. Tom Brady had Gronk (equivalent time a #1WR) Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman in his ongoing career. Aaron Rodgers has had Davante Adams, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver. Eli Manning has had OBJ, Hakeem Nicks, Plaxico Burress, Victor Cruz. Drew Brees has had Michael Thomas, Jimmy Graham (equivalent to a #1WR), Marquis Colston, Jow Horn throughly his career, Big Ben has had Antonio Brown, Santonio Holmes, Emmanuel Sanders, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Mike Wallace. Pat Mahomes has had Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce (like a #1 WR) in his short career. Philip Rivers has had Antonio Gates (like a #1 WR) Keenan Allen, Vincent Jackson in his career.

This isn’t at all touching who these guys RBs were as well. Who a lot of them had great receiving backs.

I know all these guys aren’t 1st rounders. And I’m not like others saying you can’t get good talent in mid rounds at WR. But I will say generally speaking your getting a more sure thing with a higher pick. The success rate for a 1st round WR against let’s say a 3rd Round WR I bet is higher. I know I view Jeudy and Lamb ALOT higher than you. I view them on the same field nearly as Julio and AJ in that draft. Can’t miss stars.

 

You don’t have to preach to me about OL. I’m an advocate of having a good OL. But I’m also an advocate of giving your hopeful franchise QB weapons. And good weapons at that.

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