Simmons, LB/S, Clemson

[Nastradamus]

Not a sleeper type player or anything, but I think he should be talked about more for us, especially if we trade down. People have this idea that Patricia likes bigger LBs and while they're not necessarily wrong, its not as simple as that. 

We have 2 LB spots that are basically both ILB spots and require bigger LBs, where Tavai and Davis will be, sure. the third spot though offers a lot of flexibility. For one, another thing that Patricia is known for is he tends to lead the league in 3 safety packages. Simmons, being known as a LB/S hybrid, gives them the ability to basically float between 3 LB and 3 S packages without having to move personnel off the field. A tremendous advantage In the chess match that is the NFL. Basically it would be like if we always played Tavon Wilson as S 3 and never played Christian Jones as a SAM LB, but Wilson became an elite athlete and coverage player. 

A good example is Tennessee and how they're playing now under Vrabel. They found Jayon Brown to play a similar role, and he was highly under valued due to size. They still pay Woodyard and Evans in the Tavai/Davis roles though. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

I didn't want to make a new thread, but I was thinking about Simmons early this morning. Specifically, his fit for this team, and why I don't think he's on the Lions' radar.

Really, where does Simmons belong in Patricia's defense? Jack? Nah. ILB? Maybe, but it's not really a great fit for him. Edge? Nope. That leaves safety. Not only do I think that playing him at safety diminishes his skillset, I don't think it's worth the #5 pick over Okudah or one of the OTs.

While playing NFL Head Coach 09 at 2:00 A.M. (because I'm classy), I realized that a great fit for him would be in some sort of variation of the 3-3-5 "Mustang" defense. The extra member of the secondary is a 3rd safety that plays anywhere from the slot or deep, and plays either man, zone, or blitzes. Not just a safety. Not just a weakside linebacker. A guy that sort of does it all, and leaves the offense guessing.

Our DLine personnel would fit that scheme, but not our linebackers: Tavai could man the middle, but we don't have anyone (outside of perhaps JRM) that should be wide: Davis would get crushed out there.

I don't see him as a fit for DET early in the draft, as appealing as his skillset may be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Edited April 23, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[LionArkie]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I didn't want to make a new thread, but I was thinking about Simmons early this morning. Specifically, his fit for this team, and why I don't think he's on the Lions' radar.

Really, where does Simmons belong in Patricia's defense? Jack? Nah. ILB? Maybe, but it's not really a great fit for him. Edge? Nope. That leaves safety. Not only do I think that playing him at safety diminishes his skillset, I don't think it's worth the #5 pick over Okudah or one of the OTs.

While playing NFL Head Coach 09 at 2:00 A.M. (because I'm classy), I realized that a great fit for him would be in some sort of variation of the 3-3-5 "Mustang" defense. The extra member of the secondary is a 3rd safety that plays anywhere from the slot or deep, and plays either man, zone, or blitzes. Not just a safety. Not just a weakside linebacker. A guy that sort of does it all, and leaves the offense guessing.

Our DLine personnel would fit that scheme, but not our linebackers: Tavai could man the middle, but we don't have anyone (outside of perhaps JRM) that should be wide: Davis would get crushed out there.

I don't see him as a fit for DET early in the draft, as appealing as his skillset may be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

I think this is why he has higher bust potential.  The dude's athletic ability is insane and when you factor in his size it becomes ridiculous.  He isn't a monster at any one position you mentioned, but he possesses the ability to do them all well.  He will hide things for Patricia and that's what will make him a stud. He's a swiss army knife.  You don't use the knife for any one task over a tool built for the task, but when you're stranded on an island with a can of soup and bottle of wine, those other tools come in handy.

Edited April 23, 2020 by LionArkie

[NFL_Fan]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I didn't want to make a new thread, but I was thinking about Simmons early this morning. Specifically, his fit for this team, and why I don't think he's on the Lions' radar.

Really, where does Simmons belong in Patricia's defense? Jack? Nah. ILB? Maybe, but it's not really a great fit for him. Edge? Nope. That leaves safety. Not only do I think that playing him at safety diminishes his skillset, I don't think it's worth the #5 pick over Okudah or one of the OTs.

While playing NFL Head Coach 09 at 2:00 A.M. (because I'm classy), I realized that a great fit for him would be in some sort of variation of the 3-3-5 "Mustang" defense. The extra member of the secondary is a 3rd safety that plays anywhere from the slot or deep, and plays either man, zone, or blitzes. Not just a safety. Not just a weakside linebacker. A guy that sort of does it all, and leaves the offense guessing.

Our DLine personnel would fit that scheme, but not our linebackers: Tavai could man the middle, but we don't have anyone (outside of perhaps JRM) that should be wide: Davis would get crushed out there.

I don't see him as a fit for DET early in the draft, as appealing as his skillset may be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

good layout, i do love his talent. but i agree. I know I relate to Madden which might lose interest of others. But in my franchise I ran into having too many LB's and really had Jamie Collins..Ragland..(later signed LVE) but he barely even got any time over Jehlani and my draft pick (Chasion)  or even Will Harris could fill in on a 3rd and long. 

[BarryTheBest]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I didn't want to make a new thread, but I was thinking about Simmons early this morning. Specifically, his fit for this team, and why I don't think he's on the Lions' radar.

Really, where does Simmons belong in Patricia's defense? Jack? Nah. ILB? Maybe, but it's not really a great fit for him. Edge? Nope. That leaves safety. Not only do I think that playing him at safety diminishes his skillset, I don't think it's worth the #5 pick over Okudah or one of the OTs.

While playing NFL Head Coach 09 at 2:00 A.M. (because I'm classy), I realized that a great fit for him would be in some sort of variation of the 3-3-5 "Mustang" defense. The extra member of the secondary is a 3rd safety that plays anywhere from the slot or deep, and plays either man, zone, or blitzes. Not just a safety. Not just a weakside linebacker. A guy that sort of does it all, and leaves the offense guessing.

Our DLine personnel would fit that scheme, but not our linebackers: Tavai could man the middle, but we don't have anyone (outside of perhaps JRM) that should be wide: Davis would get crushed out there.

I don't see him as a fit for DET early in the draft, as appealing as his skillset may be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

I do not think it has been any big secret that Simmons is the guy I hope we get. the versatility and athleticism scream impact player in my eyes. I think you actually nailed it with the middle of your post which goes right along with the OP.. 3-3-5 D in which Simmons floats between LB and S. 

To address your concerns at LBer- We did sign Collins, Eli, and Ragland essentially giving us a guy capable at rushing/coverage (Collins), a thumper (Ragland), and another coverage Lber in Eli. Add in Tavai and the LBers are capable when you include what we would have Simmons doing. As for Davis, coverage and filling holes have been a struggle, but as I have laid out previously, he is a pitbull that we need go just have attack the QB.   

If Patricia is the genius we are led to believe, this would be a very good and well rounded LBing core equally capable of rushing the passer, plugging running lanes, and coverage. 

All this said, I am not confident Simmons will be our selection due to Bob's tendency to play it safe. Maybe the mandate lights a fire and he takes a chance. I do not know though.. 

[BigC421/]

I don’t think I’ve ever been more on the fence about a player in my life.  There’s so much to work with yet still so much unknown.  Any position you stick him at there’s a “yeah but” critical aspect of the position that’s huge unknown.  Should he put on a little weight? Lose a little weight? Put on a lot of weight?  I really don’t know.  If he can become above average at taking on and shedding blocks he has HOF potential.  I don’t think it’s crazy to think he could put on some weight and be an edge rusher but that’s a huge risk early.

I won’t be upset if the Lions take him, I’ll probably even get pretty excited over the immense upside. I don’t think he’s as much of a boom/bust as people make out. Actually think there’s a really good chance he just ends up being a good strong safety that any team would love but maybe not spend a top 5 pick on.  

As far as how our favorite rocket scientist would use him?  I think he would probably start him as the standard SS and instead of bringing in a hybrid for 3 safety package Simmons would move down and an extra coverage safety comes on.  

[Just Want A Title]

I think we should draft him because we have zero LBs who can cover TEs and RBs.  That said, he could be an absolute terror in our defense.

[Millenhater]

2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I didn't want to make a new thread, but I was thinking about Simmons early this morning. Specifically, his fit for this team, and why I don't think he's on the Lions' radar.

Really, where does Simmons belong in Patricia's defense? Jack? Nah. ILB? Maybe, but it's not really a great fit for him. Edge? Nope. That leaves safety. Not only do I think that playing him at safety diminishes his skillset, I don't think it's worth the #5 pick over Okudah or one of the OTs.

While playing NFL Head Coach 09 at 2:00 A.M. (because I'm classy), I realized that a great fit for him would be in some sort of variation of the 3-3-5 "Mustang" defense. The extra member of the secondary is a 3rd safety that plays anywhere from the slot or deep, and plays either man, zone, or blitzes. Not just a safety. Not just a weakside linebacker. A guy that sort of does it all, and leaves the offense guessing.

Our DLine personnel would fit that scheme, but not our linebackers: Tavai could man the middle, but we don't have anyone (outside of perhaps JRM) that should be wide: Davis would get crushed out there.

I don't see him as a fit for DET early in the draft, as appealing as his skillset may be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

I thought about him last night and early this morning as well.  Haha. 

I’ve echoed your thoughts this whole time and that is why i soured on him.  But then last night I watched some more of him and the dude is such a playmaker.  I think he still would be worth the pick but you would have to come to the understanding that Harris would be relegated to a full time backup and it would spell the end for Davis or Jones.  They would have to be back ups.  I think him and Collins would be on the field the whole time.  But for me there’s a big gap between Okuda and him.

Young

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okudah

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Simmons

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Great responses.

[Karnage84]

When I've watched Simmons, his tackling has been the biggest issue for me. He tackles low like a DB despite being a LB. He seems to go for the ankles and doesn't really wrap up. A lot of his int's seemed to be as a supporting player, coming in and cutting off the ball as opposed to making a play one-on-one. He's not going to be a consistent rusher at 238 lbs (and that might even be pushed up a bit). 

If you're playing 4-3 base, he's not a good fit in your base package; if you're playing 3-4 base, he's not a great fit in your base package; he's a fit as nickel LB/3rd safety. He's more of a sub-package guy IMO, which is fine if you're subbing him in to replace different guys on a consistent basis. 

When you look at Tracy Walker's snaps, he actually seems to be the guy that does what Simmons would do for us, playing all over the place. (254 snaps in the box; 177 snaps at slot corner; 331 snaps at Free Safety). 

He's a good player but I just don't see it happening with us. I could be completely wrong. 

[Louis Friend]

I’ve stated before that I think Simmons is the biggest boom or bust player in this draft because teams just don’t know how to use him. I think he is arguably the most talented player in this draft overall. But if he goes to a team that will not build a defense around him or play to his versatility, he will bust hard. 

[Karnage84]

5 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

I’ve stated before that I think Simmons is the biggest boom or bust player in this draft because teams just don’t know how to use him. I think he is arguably the most talented player in this draft overall. But if he goes to a team that will not build a defense around him or play to his versatility, he will bust hard. 

He reminds me of when Myles Jack was coming out (albeit MJ was bigger) along with Derwin James. There was all that talk about Jack's versatility, you could even play him on offense, and he's been an ok player throughout his career. At least at his size Jack can fit in a base defense. Simmons was listed at 230 lbs on ESPN and I know I've seen 225 floated around. 

[LionArkie]

9 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

I’ve stated before that I think Simmons is the biggest boom or bust player in this draft because teams just don’t know how to use him. I think he is arguably the most talented player in this draft overall. But if he goes to a team that will not build a defense around him or play to his versatility, he will bust hard. 

great post. I agree. I don't think you can build the defense around him. I know he is an athletic freak, and if we had a top notch DL then I like him a lot more, but we don't so unless we get him later in the first, I want to play it a little safer.  He could end up in the Hall, he might be a beast, but I think I'd take the ridicule for passing on him when there is a lot of other talent out there at positions we need.

[LionArkie]

1 minute ago, Karnage84 said:

He reminds me of when Myles Jack was coming out (albeit MJ was bigger) along with Derwin James. There was all that talk about Jack's versatility, you could even play him on offense, and he's been an ok player throughout his career. At least at his size Jack can fit in a base defense. Simmons was listed at 230 lbs on ESPN and I know I've seen 225 floated around. 

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I thought he ran the combine at 238?  If he's 225 I definitely don't like it.  I'd like to see him around that 250 range as long as he doesn't lose speed and agility.

[Karnage84]

5 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I thought he ran the combine at 238?  If he's 225 I definitely don't like it.  I'd like to see him around that 250 range as long as he doesn't lose speed and agility.

He ran it at 238...just wondering if he downed a bunch of water for the weigh in. He did measure in at 238 at the Clemson pro day as well.