BlaqOptic Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 No, and I've watched his entire career hoping that he truly would be an elite player. Last year he truly did turn it on. Though PFF did slightly overrate his success he did tally 20 QB hits and 52 pressures which is one of the highest totals I've ever seen from someone not named JJ Watt or Aaron Donald but it just doesn't actually look that way when you see it on film. You never really got the perception that he was taking games over. That said, even though some might disagree with me, it somewhat felt that way last week. As if Graham had seen all the comments about him from fans askking how he got a 93 rating from PFF or 95 rating in Madden and used it as fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 6 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said: Graham is easily within that lot. He's better than Jones, Vernon, JPP and Heyward. Graham had a better 2016 but let's not ignore that in the 2 seasons preceding he amassed a grand total of 1 more pressure/hit despite being an OLB. Granted he split time but come on. Not saying those guys are better but it really seems people are running away with Graham's 2016 season while ignoring his maddeningly inconsistent play that resulted in splitting time before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 1 hour ago, BlaqOptic said: Graham had a better 2016 but let's not ignore that in the 2 seasons preceding he amassed a grand total of 1 more pressure/hit despite being an OLB. Granted he split time but come on. Not saying those guys are better but it really seems people are running away with Graham's 2016 season while ignoring his maddeningly inconsistent play that resulted in splitting time before then. I thought we operated on a strict "right here, right now" basis on this forum. If we're going back to 2015 and 2014, quite a few rankings change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAConrad Posted September 16, 2017 Author Share Posted September 16, 2017 6 hours ago, Jakuvious said: There's a few things I want to highlight here. Graham is underrated, and he definitely is a quality edge rusher, but he is absolutely not an elite edge rusher yet. He has not shown the ability to produce and disrupt on the level of a guy like Watt, Mack, Miller, or Houston. And I don't really see an argument for it. If he can play a full season like he played last week, we can talk, but he's not elite because there is that gap between him and the top guys. You're not wrong, here. Pressures absolutely can be undervalued, but there is a difficulty in pressures because they're a very subjective stat. There's a reason you'll never find them on ESPN or NFL.com, because what constitutes a pressure will always be a matter of opinion, and consistencies have been found before in PFF's tracking of that stat. Additionally, while pressures do have value, sacks do still have more value. If given a choice between a player who gets 7 pressures in a game, and a player who gets 2 sacks and 5 pressures in a game, give me the latter. And while the amount of pressure Graham provided last year would set him apart from most players, guys like I mentioned above, the Macks and Watts of the league, produce that rate of pressure while ALSO producing double digit sack totals. Producing more pressures than Beasley does not make him the 2nd or 3rd most valuable edge rusher. Beasley is the opposite end of the spectrum. A highly disproportionate amount of his pressures were sacks. He didn't generate as much pressure as his sack total reflects. So comparing Graham to Beasley shouldn't really convince anyone. And saying him being better than Beasley makes him 2nd or 3rd just doesn't really make any sense. Those two things have nothing to do with each other. You're overlooking the obvious answer here. That he just isn't as good at finishing those plays as the elite guys are. That may not be the case, but it's generally the most likely answer. Particularly given that it has been consistent throughout his career. During one season you can certainly get unlucky and have a lot of almost moments. But a career of that and you probably just aren't good enough at finishing. Again, it's because he just isn't quite elite and the Eagles really aren't one of the best defense's in the NFL either. They were a little above average last year (maybe they'll step it up this year, but it's WAY too early to make that claim.) And Graham isn't on the level of Watt/Mack/Houston/Miller, so I can't agree that he's elite. He's probably a top 5 4-3 DE, but you're omitting half the league at that point and there's still a gap between him and Mack there anyway. I only compared him to Beasley to show the value of pressures and sacks relative to another. There are a multitude of reasons I listed as to why Graham is an elite edge rusher. I won'tlist them again. But one BIG thing I want to address is you saying the eagles defense was a "little above average' last year. you're joking right??? you realize our defense was 4th in DVOA last season? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everlong Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 PFF could say Christian Hackenburg is a top 5 QB and people will buy into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, everlong said: PFF could say Christian Hackenburg is a top 5 QB and people will buy into it. They ride Hackenburg. Just to clear that up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 The only thing I'm going to say here is that NFL FO's disagree. Hence why Graham isn't paid like a top 10 pass rusher. For all the talk about 'pressures,' the people cutting the checks don't agree on their relative significance compared to sacks. It should also be stated that all pressures aren't created equally. Not to even mention how one counts a pressure.If Graham were some elite edge rusher, at some point the sacks should be there in the numbers you'd expect. What we instead see is a guy who is consistently not good enough to close the deal. For years, I remember the Steelers internal stats on QB pressures showed Brett Keisel led the team. That didn't mean they saw him as their best pass rusher or a dominant force. And he was a good player at his position. They weren't about to pay him like Woodley or Harrison. As someone above said, you can watch some of these guys people talk about in terms of hurries/hits and their impact isn't that great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Hunter2_1 said: I thought we operated on a strict "right here, right now" basis on this forum. If we're going back to 2015 and 2014, quite a few rankings change. If one truly believes that going forward Graham will continue this form then that's fine. I have no problem operating under this guise. However, I also am wary of annointing maddeningly inconsistent players who have a "breakout season" as better than their contemporaries. I've been burned by that line of thinking way too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 1 hour ago, BlaqOptic said: If one truly believes that going forward Graham will continue this form then that's fine. I have no problem operating under this guise. However, I also am wary of annointing maddeningly inconsistent players who have a "breakout season" as better than their contemporaries. I've been burned by that line of thinking way too many times. Fair enough. He also benefits from having a good front 7 entirely. Wonder if he'd still put up those numbers and performances on weaker fronts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurtry86 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 11 hours ago, OleXmad said: "he belongs amongst the elite players at his position. " Elite=top 3 players to me. If we're including 3-4 DEs because they're still DEs. 1. J.J watt 2. Khalil Mack 3. Cliff Avril 4. Michael Bennet 5. Chandler Jones (He plays 3-4 LB now but played 4-3 DE with the patriots) 6. Everson Griffin 7. Joey Bosa 8. Olivier Vernon 9. JPP 10. Cameron heyward Probably forgetting a few players. Graham is a better overall player than Olivier Vernon or Chandler Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarok Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 To answer the question, no he is not. Mike Daniels is better and just as underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVillain112 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 Guys like Graham and Mike Daniels I do think get a decent amount of fan praise. My favorite under the radar/under rated player is Telvin Smith. Love watching that guy play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveTheVikings Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 OP just proved that Graham is very good at almost finishing a play, but not actually finishing a play. To be elite you have to be to finish it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 He's not an elite pass rusher IMO, not even elite edge rusher. To be elite you have to be in conversation for the best, and I don't think he's in the conversation with Watt, Miller, Houston, or Mack. I'd even take Bosa, Bennett, and Everson Griffen over him, although I'll concede those are more debatable. That's excluding guys like Daniels, Atkins, Donald, Jordan, Short, Suh, Jones, Mercilus, Clowney, Hunter, Ingram, Kerrigan, Vernon, JPP, Ansah, and McCoy. As others have said, pressures are subjective and I don't like using them as a crux of an argument. And even if you did, you're lumping him in with guys that get similar pressures and more sacks. Doesn't make sense. An elite player overall? No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanTaylorsaPIMP Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I think Fletcher Cox is severely underrated. He kills us. He needs to be mentioned with the elite defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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