Sugashane Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, The_Romen said: Just last year we all said how badly free agents would want to come here for the culture. Now, one year later, we're a doomed ship? I don't believe all that. I think this is still a prime spot for FA's and we'll see Pace continue to try to fill holes with mid-priced FA's. I don't think we'll blow all the budget on one or two players. Quote This isn't the John Fox Bears by any means, so I'm not being all doom and gloom. But until the QB and offense as a whole don't suck something fierce this isn't the top destination for anyone that isn't a QB. That clearly doesn't mean anything near a "doomed ship." I just said it wasn't a top destination, and I don't see an argument being made otherwise yet. 2019 showed a few things that were consistent: - HC struggles to adjust on the run - QB misses open throws constantly, is laughably conservative and reliant on ARob for any important down - OL is trash at run blocking. - OTs are mediocre at best. After last offseason things looked to be on the upswing- Tru was expected to take the next step but took 2 back. Nagy's shown he can design pays but doesn't have a great feel for calling or making adjustments Defense is great overall, you're not realistically replicating that turnover amount. Now there will potentially be holes opened to save some cap that need filled. Until QB is corrected then this will not be a top destination. If we are offering someone X amount of money and KC, BAL, or some other Super Bowl contender that seems to have a legit franchise QB is offering the same then they are highly unlikely to sign in Chicago. It's just the reality of the situation, especially if you're looking at factors such as warmer weather, income tax issues and more that could go against Chicago. I'm willing to pony up to get key players, we did for ARob after his injury and it has been a fantastic decision. The positions we are looking like that need attention are just expensive to begin with - EDGE, CB, OTs, a receiving TE, etc. Add in $1-2 million more than a top competitor per year and it will add up, but is worth it if they are productive for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, Sugashane said: This is about what we would do, not Pace. lol That being said I'm not releasing Floyd, someone would bite for at least a 4th. If he hit FA then we would get a conditional 3rd due to someone overpaying him, I'd take a pick that is 10 spots later a year earlier rather than wait for a slightly better pick. Lol I get that but the thread title was what we would do with $24M in cap space not what cuts we would make to current players on the team. That said I agree that $13M is a lot for Floyd but it's a 1 year commitment and we don't really have better alternatives behind Mack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) OK so what I would do, if I'm in Pace and Nagy's shoes I know I need to make some moves and swing for the fences- so I do. - Call WAS and speak with them, let them know we are interested in trading for him, request to see Smith and have my medical staff review his documentation from all his surgeries (17 reported surgeries! Holy crap!) and to have my medical staff fully check him out. - If he checks out and he should be able to play in 2020 I try to make a move for him. WAS isn't going to eat $32 mil in dead cap, but between Smith and Williams you have $35.9 million that aren't going to play for you in 2020. So we negotiate with the players, they restructure their deals with WAS to remove any and all dead cap and then a sign and trade with us. Smith gets 3 years $48 mil with $32 mil guaranteed, and Williams gets 3 years $39 mil, fully guaranteed. WAS has a laundry list of needs - EDGE, OT, CB, WR, LB, IOL. We work with that and offer 2 picks over 2 years. Our first 2nd rounder this year and a conditional pick for 2021 (base of a 4th, goes to a 3rd if we make the postseason, and goes to a 2nd if we make the Super Bowl).They are going to get to pick between Chase Young, Wills, and Thomas. I expect them to snare Young. - So I offer them Floyd, Amukamara, Gabriel, Daniels, early 2020 2nd pick, and the conditional 2021 pick. If they decline then I drop it to Floyd and the 2nd round pick. Let's assume they are sick of Williams' refusal to play for them and want to avoid the Cousins fiasco again, so they take the trade and now have EDGE (known draft pick), LB, and IOL taken care of, and WR corps has a deep threat added for Haskins to take advantage of and CB has a body to hold the fort down so they don't have to force a pick. They can try to replace Williams with their 2nd. Sounds like a good deal for them. Chicago has a real QB for the current regime that gives Nagy a chance to prove he wasn't a big reason for the offensive failures in the last 2 years. They have the LT improves in Williams, Leno or Massie will play RT and the other will kick in to OG for their last year in Chicago (and will act as swing OT potentially). They also went from $24 to $53 mil (as per @ColGerBear), then went back to $24 mil after the trades. I'll lay this all out in a mock but for the quick and dirty with THAT $24 million (as @topwop1 seems to want lol) Moves with $24 mil - Sign Jason Pierre Paul to a 3 year, $27 mil deal with $18 mil guaranteed at 7/9/11 (down to $17 mil) - Sign Osemele for 2 years, $12 mil with $6 mil guaranteed at 5/7 (down to $12 mil) - Re-sign DT at 2 years, $10 mil with $5 mil guaranteed at 4/6 (down to $8 mil) - Re-sign Kwiatkoski at 4 years, $18 mil with $13 guaranteed at 3/4/6/5 (down to $5 mil) (can play base OLB while JPP passrushes and provides insurance in case Smith or DT go down) - Re-sign Bush to 2 years, $7 mil fully guaranteed at 2.5/4.5 (down to $2.5 mil) Other moves and adjustments can be made to adjust the cap to add depth. But that is the big chunk. QB - Smith HB- Montgomery FB - Holtz WR - ARob, Miller, TE - Burton, Holtz (also FB) LT/RT - Williams, Leno LG/RG - Osemele, Massie C - Whitehair DEs- Hicks, Nichols NT - Goldman OLB - Mack, JPP, Kwiatkoski ILB - Smith, DT, Kwiatkoski CB - Fuller, Toliver, Skrine FS - Jackson SS - Bush K- Pineiro P - UFA winner LS - Scales Edited January 13, 2020 by Sugashane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 All I know is if OL doesn't block better this team has no chance. MT was bad and that combined with rest made Offense horrible in 2019. But I think only maybe Wilson and Brady and maybe Watson could have survived and made plays behind this O line. I don't care what stats or PFF or whatever say. Guys were coming free over and over again and running game had no push. Wilson and Watson because they can scramble and Brady because he can get ball off fast - but he couldn't have done it in Nagy's offense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 hours ago, dll2000 said: All I know is if OL doesn't block better this team has no chance. MT was bad and that combined with rest made Offense horrible in 2019. But I think only maybe Wilson and Brady and maybe Watson could have survived and made plays behind this O line. I don't care what stats or PFF or whatever say. Guys were coming free over and over again and running game had no push. Wilson and Watson because they can scramble and Brady because he can get ball off fast - but he couldn't have done it in Nagy's offense. Wilson and Watson but not Lamar Jackson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 11 hours ago, topwop1 said: Wilson and Watson but not Lamar Jackson? He is best running QB ever, but I was think he is better with a designed run scheme featuring him. Balt Oline was very good this year as well. I think you put him with 2019 Bears Oline and he would struggle rather than succeed like he did in Balt in 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 The first thing here. You're looking at it from Pace and Nagy's shoes and the idea of the thread was to put yourself in their shoes. It's cool tho. On 1/12/2020 at 10:14 PM, Sugashane said: (Paraphrase, correct if I'm wrong) Smith, Williams, more cap space in exchange for Floyd, Amukamara, Gabriel, Daniels, early 2020 2nd pick, and the conditional 2021 pick. It's clear that you think much more highly of Smith than I do, but even that aside, don't you think that's ALOT to give up for those two? OAK's 2nd round pick and Daniels alone (who is only 2 years removed from being a 2nd round pick) seems too much to me. Much less adding Floyd, Prince, Gabriel, and a conditional pick. I know those guys may not have much trade value alone but as a packaged deal.......that's a hell of a haul. I won't debate about Smith. IMO, he's not even worth a look unless it's very cheap. While Williams would be a good addition talent-wise, I don't see him as a long term fix (but I also understand that you're looking at this from Pace/Nagy's POV and I could see them making a move for a player like Williams purely out of desperation). On 1/12/2020 at 10:14 PM, Sugashane said: - Sign Jason Pierre Paul to a 3 year, $27 mil deal with $18 mil guaranteed at 7/9/11 (down to $17 mil) I always thought his ceiling was through the roof but his attitude and lack of work ethic kept him reaching it. We don't need a player who only seems to be concerned with making money, Besides, I don't want any of our rookie getting thrown into ice baths. It's a good thing you got rid of Prince b/c that would've been ugly lol. On 1/12/2020 at 10:14 PM, Sugashane said: - Sign Osemele for 2 years, $12 mil with $6 mil guaranteed at 5/7 (down to $12 mil) I would love this signing. He's been pretty underrated his entire career and I believe Bell would've done better this year had it not been for his injury. On 1/12/2020 at 10:14 PM, Sugashane said: - Re-sign DT at 2 years, $10 mil with $5 mil guaranteed at 4/6 (down to $8 mil) If he would take this I would love it. I do think we should resign him regardless (unless it's something ridiculous). On 1/12/2020 at 10:14 PM, Sugashane said: - Re-sign Kwiatkoski at 4 years, $18 mil with $13 guaranteed at 3/4/6/5 (down to $5 mil) (can play base OLB while JPP passrushes and provides insurance in case Smith or DT go down) This a good deal but I would be surprised if he agreed to it. Plus, he played better at the ILB position and still sucks against the run. IMO, he's going to be sought after in FA and his potential draft pick is more valuable to us in the future than it is to keep him. On 1/12/2020 at 10:14 PM, Sugashane said: - Re-sign Bush to 2 years, $7 mil fully guaranteed at 2.5/4.5 (down to $2.5 mil) This is a fair deal, and I would like to resign him. He's a proven solid backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) @JustAnotherFan I couldn't quote you for some reason. lol I don't actually think that highly of Smith, but I do think that little of Trubisky at this point. I 100% believe Smith would be an upgrade over Tru even if his mobility is always going to be limited, he is simply a better passer. We have a shot to win postseason games with him being a relatively average starter. I don't have that confidence in Tru. It may be a lot to give up to some, but I don't think it is as much as most. Floyd is nothing more than a future comp pick to me, and as a player has become completely overrated. I don't think he would actually be a gamechanger in a 4-3 either TBH. Amukamara is ok but overpriced and aging, Gabriel is nothing special and needs to be replaced, and the conditional pick is basically my way of ensuring we can get the two. I would take Smith and Williams over the combination of the Bears players given up. I'd be cutting Amukamara and Gabriel without the trade anyway. He may be concerned with making money but he produced last year. Let's be real, the money is the primary reason most guys play in the NFL, it isn't just the love of the game or desire to win. If so you'd see superteams where the best guys are taking major discounts to win. Mack came here and had money on his mind, so I have no issue with someone wanting significantly less. Floyd is due to make more for doing much less. Besides, I don't think Hicks is letting anyone get hazed. Remember how he owned Bennett during the NE practices? Relive the glory my friend... lol True, Osemele would have been an immediate upgrade in the run and passing game. I think he would be here too. He may only be a temp upgrade but he would be someone to let us develop a young guy and have as a role model for them too. DT is a guy I'd like to keep as well. His best years are behind him but he was still really well last year overall. I just think he needs someone more physical to pair with him, he didn't seem to get off blocks as well as when he first got here. Kwiatkoski sucked against the run? I thought he was good vs the run, I'd argue he and Smith were a better duo vs the run than Smith and DT were last year. His weakness has always been in coverage, but that is minimized on the outside when he is more in shallow zones and covering flats. Kind of like how Briggs was great in coverage for Lovie until he had to move to MLB where his lack of athleticism was exposed. Plus when there is an obvious passing down, he is coming off in favor of Smith and DT being in coverage, and Mack and JPP rushing the QB. So it doesn't concern me at all. As long as Bush's coverage role is limited I think he could be a good player. I'd like to roll the dice with him. There are a few intriguing options at S in FA this year though. Edited January 17, 2020 by Sugashane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 If I have the choice between signing DT or Kwit at similar deals but I can only pick one then I am taking DT hands down. While he is an older player, he is still a better LB than Kwit is plus he has what I believe to be at least a couple good years left in the tank and his leadership traits are just too invaluable. I agree with @JustAnotherFan that the potential comp pick we get back if we let Kwit go and he signs a nice contract somewhere else, will be more valuable to us. This is what the good organizations like the Ravens, Patriots, Packers, etc. make a habit of doing. They are masters at drafting and building up mid to late round talent and then once these players are off their rookie deals they let them sign for overpriced deals elsewhere, then they replenish their depth with the comp draft picks, and rinse & repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, topwop1 said: If I have the choice between signing DT or Kwit at similar deals but I can only pick one then I am taking DT hands down. While he is an older player, he is still a better LB than Kwit is plus he has what I believe to be at least a couple good years left in the tank and his leadership traits are just too invaluable. I agree with @JustAnotherFan that the potential comp pick we get back if we let Kwit go and he signs a nice contract somewhere else, will be more valuable to us. This is what the good organizations like the Ravens, Patriots, Packers, etc. make a habit of doing. They are masters at drafting and building up mid to late round talent and then once these players are off their rookie deals they let them sign for overpriced deals elsewhere, then they replenish their depth with the comp draft picks, and rinse & repeat. We won't get a comp pick we are going to be too active in free agency. I sign Kwit. Youth and health are very valuable resources in the NFL. Although I am fine with taking whoever is cheaper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, WindyCity said: We won't get a comp pick we are going to be too active in free agency. I sign Kwit. Youth and health are very valuable resources in the NFL. Although I am fine with taking whoever is cheaper. I am not so sure about that. We have a lot of FA's and not a whole lot of cap space. I wouldn't be surprised to see us spend less than what we lose elsewhere as FA's this off season. I am just surprised people like Kwit all of a sudden now after how bad he was in coverage and limited he is as an athlete. He is a solid football player but nothing special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, topwop1 said: I am not so sure about that. We have a lot of FA's and not a whole lot of cap space. I wouldn't be surprised to see us spend less than what we lose elsewhere as FA's this off season. I am just surprised people like Kwit all of a sudden now after how bad he was in coverage and limited he is as an athlete. He is a solid football player but nothing special. He was very good in coverage this season and incredibly productive. He was more than solid this season. Maybe he just fits better in this defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, WindyCity said: He was very good in coverage this season and incredibly productive. He was more than solid this season. Maybe he just fits better in this defense. I'd be fine if they decided to keep him, I'm just saying that I prefer DT. You lose DT and you are losing a solid leader and an edge on D. Guys like Kwit can be found in any draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 2:53 PM, topwop1 said: I'd be fine if they decided to keep him, I'm just saying that I prefer DT. You lose DT and you are losing a solid leader and an edge on D. Guys like Kwit can be found in any draft. For how many games? The issue with Trevathan is the injuries and he is older, which usually means it gets worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinz D. Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 3:29 PM, WindyCity said: For how many games? The issue with Trevathan is the injuries and he is older, which usually means it gets worse. He's had injury issues since he became a Bear, too. This isn't a new thing. I hope they keep them both, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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