Moving On To 2020/2021.

[Hyperborean]

5 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

I beg to differ, kind of.  With the cap situation the way it is, there isn't enough moolah to both resign our worthy free agents, AND improve those areas where deficiencies exist.  While I would love to keep all our guys, the NFL in this era, is not really about teams keeping solid veteran players.  Teams, for the most part, are built around young players on their first or cheaper second contracts.  In fact, I foresee a time coming soon that third contracts will not be offered except for the most gifted free agents. I think it's time for the Vikings, unfortunately, to get on that bandwagon. 

The salary cap, as it exists now, rewards very few players and requires teams to turnover player rosters regularly.  Now, I know someone will bring up the Patriots.  They have been good for so long because of a superior coaching staff, an other worldly QB giving the team a salary discount, and the ability to cheat.  Everyone around Brady turns over often.  The Vikings don't have a superior coaching staff (they are good...but can't minimize talent deficiencies), or an other worldly QB willing to give the team a salary (at least not yet) discount (his abilities also don't minimize deficiencies along the offensive line) and if the Vikings are cheating, I don't see where the team is reaping any benefits.

So, I think that the Vikings should (1) let FA's go (except Harris), trade some "stars" who could reap some significant draft capital (Theilen, Diggs, Smith); (2) Let Cousins walk after this season; (3) use the draft capital to rebuild the team from the inside out, i.e. offensive line and defensive line.

Do I think this is likely? No.  As someone pointed out up stream, Spielman, Cousins and Zimmer's best interests lie in trying to return to the playoffs in 2020. They have no interest in getting worse in order to get better.  They may indeed return to the playoffs, but they will not be able to compete with the Packers, Seahawks, and 49'er's (and probably the Saints as well). 

You're reading my mind.

[Hyperborean]

19 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

I've been thinking that 2020 will probably be Zim's last year.  I don't see us getting better, and if that happens, the Wilfs will rightly want to move on from all three of them.  I would love to see this offseason as one where we get rid of a lot of aging players and a lot of big contracts.  It actually wouldn't be bad if we could just keep a few of our young, core players, trade the rest and acquire ammunition for the #1 QB in the 2021 draft.  It probably won't happen, because if Spielman and Zimmer are here in 2020, they are going to be trying to win to save their jobs. 

Uncle Buck.  Now there's a name--and a scantily clad female--I remember.  It was probably a different female last time I was on, but still.  

[Snake Plissken]

Everyone has their own standards and expectations with coaching performance. I do think Zimmer’s work as a HC puts him in the above average to good category. Evaluating a coach’s performance is more than just looking st a winning percentage. Zimmer deserves credit for building a program that is going to win more games than it loses., and all the positives that come with it. 

There are areas where he does deserve criticism.  Too often he doesn’t seem to have the team prepared.  The team doesn’t do as well as it should against good teams or important games.  Sometimes it doesn’t seem like he is getting the best from the team and some players.  The inconsistencies here in being prepared, getting the best from the team, and being more competitive against good/better teams are signs of underachievement given the talent and situation. 

I think a coach only has so long in an organization before everyone needs a fresh start. I think Zimmer needs to show in 2020 he can keep the needle pointed north 

[Dolmonite26]

Coaches/teams with a better win percentage since Zimmer entered the league and their QBs:

Belichick: .686 - Brady

Reid: .670- Smith, Mahomes

Carroll: .638- Wilson

Tomlin: .637 - Big Ben

Green Bay: .612 - Rodgers

Peyton: .594- Brees

Zimmer: .590- Cassel, Bridgewater, Bradford, Keenum, Cousins

One thing is not like the other

 

[swede700]

For everyone that is soooo pessimistic, here, let me pop in the WABAC machine....

Quote

 

The Vikings have the football part down pat. They have more Pro Bowl players than any other team. Last year, they won the NFC Central Division. But they labor under the label: ''underachievers.'' So they have decided to work on their mental game. At Pecos River, they will be exposed to activities such as climbing walls to demonstrate that such things as teamwork, communications and trust are vital.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1990-05-13-9002110514-story.html

[Snake Plissken]

5 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Apologies, but the "big games" argument needs to die.

I assume "big games" are prime time game, playoff game and high leverage games for seeding which are mostly played against good teams. And wouldn't you know it? You are more likely to lose against good teams than bad teams. Football is highly variant, and loses happen as much a product of poor play and poor coaching as they do bad breaks. The Vikings have unfortunately been on the wrong side of math for several years, it happens...it's frustrating, but I'm gonna go ahead and trust the large six season sample size that tells me Zimmer can get a team a lot of wins and trust that that is enough to carry a great team through the playoffs. And he has done all of this with a huge talent deficiency at QB compared to his competitors.

... I honestly didn't know there was an underachieving narrative around Zimmer or how there can be one. 2014-2017 the team met or exceeded expectations, the first legitimately disappointing season imo was 2018....but well, we just overpaid for Kirk so...

You make some interesting points, and I am more pessimistic. 

If a team is on the wrong side of the math because of poor play, poor coaching, and too many bad breaks, something isn’t adding up. 

If you are losing too much to similar or better teams because of poor play, poor coaching, and bad breaks, the team is underachieving. A good team with a good coach will win more than their fair share. 

I think the sample size shows Zimmer can get a team to the play-offs.   That he can win a playoff game. Right now I don’t think that sample size shows Zimmer can string together enough big game wins. 

I think Zimmer has done a commendable job in building a winning program, but don’t think he is the guy who can take a team to the next level without some advantages.  

You make a good point about the QB situation. I don’t really fault Zimmer for the teams success based on the strength of the QB, but more for the performance around that position. 

Zimmer has been around the game a long time and I think what we have seen from him is the ceiling (or at least close to it) in terms of coaching ability. With his tenure with the team, contract, QB situation, salary cap, free agency, etc. I think his window is closing   

For 2020 I think Zimmer needs to show his team can be competitive on a week to week basis regardless of the opponent.  He needs to show he can not only get the team up as an underdog, but also against more equally matched opponents, while curb stomping the bottom feeders. 

SKOL

[Dolmonite26]

20 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

If a team is on the wrong side of the math because of poor play, poor coaching, and too many bad breaks, something isn’t adding up.

This isn't what happens tho. I mean how many loses are due to bad coaching? To be clear I wasn't trying to say these are all three the reasons Zim has lost big games. I was just saying that they are reason a team (any team can lose). Again, football is highly variant, bad breaks swing things in a hurry or like in the Seahawks game...end it in lose.

 

20 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

I think the sample size shows Zimmer can get a team to the play-offs.   That he can win a playoff game. Right now I don’t think that sample size shows Zimmer can string together enough big game wins. 

The sample size is 5 games.... Which if you're willing to credit him the Seahawks game, he's above .500. So, I'm asking again, what evidence do we have that he "can't win big games" when his career record says hes certainly capable of winning games.

Outside of the NFCCG, what playoff games did the team truly just not show up for? Effort wasn't the problem against the 9ers or the Seahawks. The former the other team was just better, and against the latter the kicker couldn't make a chip shot (against a much better team btw).

I know we're all fatigued by this era of Vikings football, but what are the odds "fresh blood" is a better coach than Zim?

[Cearbhall]

With all the talk of the team being up against the cap we ought to be keeping our eye on the new labor deal. Reports at PFT make it sound like the new labor deal could be done before the start of the league year. If that happens, it will be interesting to learn what that does for the salary cap for 2020. We ought to keep in mind that we have never known what the salary cap would be for 2020; everything is based on projections. Those projections could be wildly wrong if the percentage of revenue allocated to players changes or if the definition of shared revenue is widened.

I believe any talk related to the salary cap problems now ought to come with the disclaimer that it is based off of current 2020 salary cap projections which have a higher than normal likelihood of being significantly off the mark. The projections are usually pretty close when there are not changes to the CBA or TV contracts. It is looking like the CBA may be renegotiated this year and we know that the TV deals are soon up and will be renegotiated too. In the next couple years we may see a couple spikes in the salary cap that is not currently being projected.

Or if the CBA is not renegotiated there is the fact that the last league year of the current CBA will be an uncapped year.

This is something that can effect the Vikings in 2020 plenty. It allows us to consider that it may be possible to keep Harris, Alexander, Waynes, Sendejo, and most everyone else not named Kearse -- who seems to just want to leave irregardless of cap availability.

Perhaps Cook for $8M per year will look like a great deal in a year under the newly negotiated CBA and TV contracts.

It is something to keep in mind.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Cearbhall

[vikingsrule]

37 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

With all the talk of the team being up against the cap we ought to be keeping our eye on the new labor deal. Reports are PFT make it sound like the new labor deal could be done before the start of the league year. If that happens, it will be interesting to learn what that does for the salary cap for 2020. We ought to keep in mind that we have never known what the salary cap would be for 2020; everything is based on projections. Those projections could be wildly wrong if the percentage of revenue allocated to players changes or if the definition of shared revenue is widened.

I believe any talk related to the salary cap problems now ought to come with the disclaimer that it is based off of current 2020 salary cap projections which have a higher than normal likelihood of being significantly off the mark. The projections are usually pretty close when there are not changes to the CBA or TV contracts. It is looking like the CBA may be renegotiated this year and we know that the TV deals are soon up and will be renegotiated too. In the next couple years we may see a a couple spikes in the salary cap that is not currently being projected.

Or if the CBA is not renegotiated there is the fact that the last league year of the current CBA will be an uncapped year.

This is something that can effect the Vikings in 2020 plenty. It allows us to consider that it may be possible to keep Harris, Alexander, Waynes, Sendejo, and most everyone else not named Kearse -- who seems to just want to leave irregardless of cap availability.

Perhaps Cook for $8M per year will look like a great deal in a year under the newly negotiated CBA and TV contracts.

It is something to keep in mind.

Bigger question is do we really want all those players back? I’ve always viewed Waynes and Alexander as fairly mediocre. Would be nice to have another shutdown CB like Rhodes was until 2017. Won’t get much of a chance to find that player if you’re dumping a bunch of cap space on mediocre fixes. I’d bring back Alexander and Harris and force the issue at LCB. Hughes and Hill can fight it out for the other spot.

[Dolmonite26]

Good point @Cearbhall hadn't thought about that much tbh.

Something else that is a little funny to me right is that no one is talking about the general FA crop outside the team and man...its pretty good, even if you account for that fact that some players won't hit the market.

We're all over looking it for obvious reasons, but its kind of funny that were all talking about ways to free up cap space to keep all of the in house players but no reason that money can't be spent to bring in some outside talent.

They need to give Byron Jones a haaaard look if he hits the market.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Dolmonite26

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

This is incredibly disconnected from reality

Maybe. However, I am 59 years old, overweight, asthmatic, arthritic, and I can feel my arteries hardening.  I really don't care about making the playoffs if it doesn't end in hoisting a Lombardi.  You and others might be satisfied with winning records and making the playoffs, but that's no longer enough for me.  Any season that doesn't end being the last team standing is "underachieving."

[Hyperborean]

18 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Coaches/teams with a better win percentage since Zimmer entered the league and their QBs:

Belichick: .686 - Brady

Reid: .670- Smith, Mahomes

Carroll: .638- Wilson

Tomlin: .637 - Big Ben

Green Bay: .612 - Rodgers

Peyton: .594- Brees

Zimmer: .590- Cassel, Bridgewater, Bradford, Keenum, Cousins

One thing is not like the other

 

You're right.  All of those teams except Minnesota are offensive minded franchises.  He still thinks defense wins championships.

[Hyperborean]

10 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Good point @Cearbhall hadn't thought about that much tbh.

Something else that is a little funny to me right is that no one is talking about the general FA crop outside the team and man...its pretty good, even if you account for that fact that some players won't hit the market.

We're all over looking it for obvious reasons, but its kind of funny that were all talking about ways to free up cap space to keep all of the in house players but no reason that money can't be spent to bring in some outside talent.

They need to give Byron Jones a haaaard look if he hits the market.

I agree.  There's something comforting about keeping the gang together, but I think an influx of new faces could be a real boost too, given they were the right fit.  

[Hyperborean]

11 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

With all the talk of the team being up against the cap we ought to be keeping our eye on the new labor deal. Reports at PFT make it sound like the new labor deal could be done before the start of the league year. If that happens, it will be interesting to learn what that does for the salary cap for 2020. We ought to keep in mind that we have never known what the salary cap would be for 2020; everything is based on projections. Those projections could be wildly wrong if the percentage of revenue allocated to players changes or if the definition of shared revenue is widened.

I believe any talk related to the salary cap problems now ought to come with the disclaimer that it is based off of current 2020 salary cap projections which have a higher than normal likelihood of being significantly off the mark. The projections are usually pretty close when there are not changes to the CBA or TV contracts. It is looking like the CBA may be renegotiated this year and we know that the TV deals are soon up and will be renegotiated too. In the next couple years we may see a couple spikes in the salary cap that is not currently being projected.

Or if the CBA is not renegotiated there is the fact that the last league year of the current CBA will be an uncapped year.

This is something that can effect the Vikings in 2020 plenty. It allows us to consider that it may be possible to keep Harris, Alexander, Waynes, Sendejo, and most everyone else not named Kearse -- who seems to just want to leave irregardless of cap availability.

Perhaps Cook for $8M per year will look like a great deal in a year under the newly negotiated CBA and TV contracts.

It is something to keep in mind.

Good point, but we're still going to be in last place no matter what the numbers are.  And second place isn't even close.  That's as of now, not knowing who's going to be cut, traded, etc.

[Uncle Buck]

21 hours ago, Hyperborean said:

Uncle Buck.  Now there's a name--and a scantily clad female--I remember.  It was probably a different female last time I was on, but still.  

As the old saying goes, "variety is the spice of life!"    Thanks for the shout out, and don't be a stranger around here.  We're glad to have you on the site!