Dolmonite26 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, swede700 said: Howard has huge upside, but he's been far too inconsistent...and in the end, the Vikings have absolutely no need for him. TE is one of the few positions that they don't have any need for either a starter or depth. I disagree for a few reasons. Howard's "inconsistency" is mostly due to injuries his first two years and just being a tight end. It's a position that never creates big production early. However his rate statistics are other worldly and he has been a great blocker is entire pro career. This season was all because Bruce Arians doesn't know how to use tight ends and he just made him stay in and block. So the reasons I think he's a candidate to trade for is multi faceted. Primarily, his value is most certainly depreciated, so he can be had cheap. Secondly the offense does need some more fire power in addition to help on the line. Well Howard gives you both, so I disagree that he is "of no need." The team needs to explore several creative options this off-season to address their multitude of problems (assuming they aren't blowing the whole thing up). Adding bona fide talent on the O line is going to be very challenging, bc they have little cap space and spending in FA on lineman tends to not work out but plug and play draft picks are risky. However if you can add a versatile TE like Howard (provides value in running game and passing game) and are also able to flip rudys contract for Howard's you save 6M. You're now younger on offense, have a young asset that you dont need to wait on to develop, are helping to develop the teams identity. Cook is also not potential head ache waiting to happen any more, at least not for the Vikings. It's off the beaten path, but I think the team needs to look in those weeds if they want to make real short term improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikeManDan Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Dolmonite26 said: Primarily, his value is most certainly depreciated, so he can be had cheap. If he can be had for "cheap" it doesn't make much sense to trade Cook for him then IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, VikeManDan said: If he can be had for "cheap" it doesn't make much sense to trade Cook for him then IMO. Cook for Howard is decent, offloading Rudolphs contract is a steal. Edit: People are probably over over estimating Cooks value Edited January 21, 2020 by Dolmonite26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dolmonite26 said: I disagree for a few reasons. Howard's "inconsistency" is mostly due to injuries his first two years and just being a tight end. It's a position that never creates big production early. However his rate statistics are other worldly and he has been a great blocker is entire pro career. This season was all because Bruce Arians doesn't know how to use tight ends and he just made him stay in and block. So the reasons I think he's a candidate to trade for is multi faceted. Primarily, his value is most certainly depreciated, so he can be had cheap. Secondly the offense does need some more fire power in addition to help on the line. Well Howard gives you both, so I disagree that he is "of no need." The team needs to explore several creative options this off-season to address their multitude of problems (assuming they aren't blowing the whole thing up). Adding bona fide talent on the O line is going to be very challenging, bc they have little cap space and spending in FA on lineman tends to not work out but plug and play draft picks are risky. However if you can add a versatile TE like Howard (provides value in running game and passing game) and are also able to flip rudys contract for Howard's you save 6M. You're now younger on offense, have a young asset that you dont need to wait on to develop, are helping to develop the teams identity. Cook is also not potential head ache waiting to happen any more, at least not for the Vikings. It's off the beaten path, but I think the team needs to look in those weeds if they want to make real short term improvements. So we're trading a stud running back for an injury plagued tight end to bring him into an offense that didn't use many two tight end passing plays to begin with? Why not just use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a pass catching tight end and keep Cook? Edited January 21, 2020 by Vikes_Bolts1228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: Cook for Howard is decent, offloading Rudolphs contract is a steal. Edit: People are probably over over estimating Cooks value I think you're over-estimating OJ Howard. He's done nothing in his career to warrant discussions about him being a big part of this offense or giving up a top-5 running back for said player in a position of very little need in our offense. Edited January 21, 2020 by Vikes_Bolts1228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Lol, silly me, forgot that people will always defend the status quo.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: Lol, silly me, forgot that people will always defend the status quo.... Or just think dumb ideas are dumb...either or. If you said Zach Ertz or Travis Kelce or a returning Gronk...sure. But OJ Howard? A tight end who's done nothing in this league 3 years in and bringing him onto an offense that doesn't use two tight end sets in the passing game? Cris, take it away! Edited January 21, 2020 by Vikes_Bolts1228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 The point is to find value. The team has limited resources right now, so how are they supposed to get an established top 5 player?... To quote your own quote, c'mon man. I literally said this was an different idea, it's inherently unconventional. Calling it dumb is just rude and offers no substance, so congrats on that, should be proud. Cook is a candidate because TB needs a running back, so it makes sense, but maybe they can do better idk. I'm glad everyone (the Vikings probably included) wants to keep their top 5 back, just like the LAR, cowboys, and falcons. I mean if Melvin Gordon has shown us anything, it's that running backs totally matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: Calling it dumb is just rude and offers no substance, so congrats on that, should be proud. I tried offering substance. All you came back was with some smart alec remark about everyone opposing your BRILLIANT idea as just being apart of and defending the status quo. Good talk. Sorry I hurt your feelings. Edited January 21, 2020 by Vikes_Bolts1228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: I tried offering substance. All you came back was with some smart alec remark about everyone opposing your BRILLIANT idea as just being apart of and defending the status quo. Good talk. Sorry I hurt your feelings. -I didnt respond to you directly in regards to the status quo for a reason. - I consider my idea a way to shift the convo to something different. The idea's "brilliance" is of little concern to me -you ignored the rest of the post that offered further insight. -my comment was probably overly defensive. -thanks for the concern but the box of tissues helped, I think I'm over it now. Edited January 22, 2020 by Dolmonite26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perrynoid Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Gentlemen, let's be civil! Otherwise, I might have to report you to...the Greta! And you know what that means? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 But since the talk seems to be mostly focused on Howard's lack of production. Let me clarify, that's kind of the point. He is big time talent who, as I said earlier, has great rate statistics (which could point to future dividends). The team would be taking a risk, but they'd be getting a player who could return value short term (a rookie TE can't do that) and long term. As I also said earlier, it might be unconventional, but he might be a TE who exploits a market inefficiency compared to most TEs. He has Gronkian ability and could offer a similar value to what Kittle is giving thr 9ers right now. I.e. can be a major contributor in the running game, but also helps the team pivot to a passing attack when needed. Would love to hear of some other players who could offer similar upside for smallish investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: So we're trading a stud running back for an injury plagued tight end to bring him into an offense that didn't use many two tight end passing plays to begin with? Why not just use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a pass catching tight end and keep Cook? Injuries early in a players career don't correlate with injuries later. Two TE sets are irrelevant to the point because Howard would be the starter, but the team might have used less two TE sets because they didn't really have a lot of TEs to begin with after Rudy. Smith is promising but still young and they may have not trusted him with a lot. The team should try to trade Cook for something and this just seems like a pathway to do that. Best they can probably get for him is a 2nd rounder and I'd much rather have Howard. I only bring up Howard cause he might want out of Tampa and they need an RB, so that's really the only genesis point of this ideaer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I expect Smith to make a big jump and it shouldn't be too hard to find a 2nd te imo if they move on from Rudolph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) Once again, you're not addressing the fact that this offense doesn't use two tight ends like a 2011 Patriots or the current Eagles with Ertz and Goddert. We're already the 29th in pass attempts so do you really think we're going to throw the ball enough to justify trading a stud running back for a tight end we'll hardly use? Do you think Zimmer/Kubiak/Kubiak are going to suddenly want to go to a passing attack featuring the tight ends? I agree with you. It'd be smart to try and trade Cook but I'm not trading him for a tight end that hasn't done a thing in the league. You can sit here and say he only hasn't produced because of said injuries but that's a BIG concern. 3 seasons now and he's yet to do anything of note. You can go down a laundry list of players and say "He would produce if he were healthy!" What you're talking about doing is like adding a hot tub to your house when you need new siding and a new roof to stop the water for leaking in. It's luxury. Much like drafting Smith was in 2019. It's something we really don't need over things we do need. We could EASILY find another athletic pass catching TE in the later rounds and develop them into a 2nd TE option and use the return on Dalvin on something more important like, say....offensive line, CB's and a 3-tech. 3 positions that hurt this team pretty bad in 2019. There's no way O.J. Howard is worth a 2nd round pick. None. I don't care about what potential he may have or that he just needs a clean slate but if you tell me I need to choose between Dalvin Cook for a 2nd round pick or Dalvin Cook for a TE who hasn't done anything in 3 seasons, I'm taking the pick ESPECIALLY when we just spent a 2nd on a TE in 2019. Edited January 22, 2020 by Vikes_Bolts1228 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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