Moving On To 2020/2021.

[Dolmonite26]

11 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

I expect Smith to make a big jump and it shouldn't be too hard to find a 2nd te imo if they move on from Rudolph

This is a fair point, I expect a similar jump. The problem is moving on from Rudy only saves them ~3m, but the 9m hit to keep him is a little heavy imo.

Fwiw, Howard>any Vikings TE imo

Any other possible player for player trades involving Cook that we can see out there? Maybe one that hits team needs a little more head on?

Edited January 22, 2020 by Dolmonite26

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

1 minute ago, Dolmonite26 said:

This is a fair point, cause I expect a similar jump. The problem is moving on from Rudy only saves them ~3m.

Fwiw Howard>any Vikings TE.

Any other possible player for player trades involving Cook that we can see out there? Maybe one that hits team needs a little more head on?

Player for player trades, especially with stars, are rare in this league.

If you tell me we'd get Howard and a 2nd for Cook and Rudy, now you're onto something.

[Dolmonite26]

29 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

Player for player trades, especially with stars, are rare in this league.

If you tell me we'd get Howard and a 2nd for Cook and Rudy, now you're onto something.

Didn't want to seem greedy 😉

Even still, imo, Cook and Rudy for Howard and 6m in cap space seems worth it. Especially since Howard is a better blocker than Rudy and with the 6m you might have a better shot at an Olineman in FA.

But.... I'd take a 2nd too lol

Edit: poking around the interwebs and it seems I might be over estimating Howard's trade market. So all the more reason to go after him imo, maybe its just Rudy and 4th to get him and Cook can be traded else where for additional assets.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Dolmonite26

[swede700]

If you're going to trade Rudy, at least do him a favor and trade him to Cincinnati.  

[Dolmonite26]

2 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

Once again, you're not addressing the fact that this offense doesn't use two tight ends like a 2011 Patriots or the current Eagles with Ertz and Goddert... Do you think Zimmer/Kubiak/Kubiak are going to suddenly want to go to a passing attack featuring the tight ends?

So, like I said, OJ would likely be the starter, so I'm really sure what the concern is. But even so, is Kubiak's system pretty 1 TE centric over the years? Honestly don't know personally, but if it is I see how thats problematic in regards to Smith. So fair point I guess

2 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

justify trading a stud running back for a tight end we'll hardly use

Again, hes the starter, so plently of use and I only brought up Cook because TB is probably in the market for one. Based on the recent trends, I'm not sure that Cook's trade value is as high as some want it to be, but I'm also probably over estimating Howards trade market. Either way  the real point I'm wanting (failing) to make is, maybe try to get Howard because his trade value is probably less than his actual value.

You obviously disagree with Howard being secretly good, which is fine and it certainly takes some projecting to get there. However the truth is, in his first two years he out performed his age based expectation by a lot when healthy and when given the chance. Unfortunately I can't find the numbers anymore to back this up but his touch based numbers and snap rate production was in rare company.

In his third year however Arians, who has a long history of not using tight end in the passing game, relegated him to being a blocking tight end (with a 98% pass-block-win-rate according to espn). He did still however accumulate nearly 500 yards and produced a lot more after Evans went down...fwiw

Again, the point is mining for a diamond, because the team is short on resources, and to my eye, Howard absolutely looks like a diamond. He's potentially gettable for cheap because he might want out and, like you said, his production is under whelming.

If he can be had for less than Cook, than by all means have at it. I personally don't value Cook that high, so it seemed appropriate, but I'm likely off the mark there.

3 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

What you're talking about doing is like adding a hot tub to your house when you need new siding and a new roof to stop the water for leaking in. It's luxury

Its not a hot tub though, cause you're paying for a kiddy pool and maybe getting an in ground one.

And I guess I see a move like this, or other, off the beaten path ones, as a means to bolster the team through unconventional means.

I mean, we all know they need help at OL, but it's going to be a difficult road to doing that. A road that should still be explored, but difficult nonetheless.

So Howard popped in my head early today as a guy who can offer the team something it doesn't have right now which is dual kit tight end for cheap, who might also create a pathway to offload Rudy's 9m cap hit, which can then be used elsewhere.

Maybe this particular move isn't the move that cracks it, but imo, the team is going to need to be creative this offseason if they still want to line em up again and take another swing at it in 2020

[SotanKing]

6 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

The point is to find value. The team has limited resources right now, so how are they supposed to get an established top 5 player?... To quote your own quote, c'mon man.

I literally said this was an different idea, it's inherently unconventional. Calling it dumb is just rude and offers no substance, so congrats on that, should be proud.

Cook is a candidate because TB needs a running back, so it makes sense, but maybe they can do better idk.

I'm glad everyone (the Vikings probably included) wants to keep their top 5 back, just like the LAR, cowboys, and falcons. I mean if Melvin Gordon has shown us anything, it's that running backs totally matter.

I kinda like the idea of exploring option of trading Cook to Bucs. I have seen people say that Winston would look better with a better running game and Bucs haven't had good rush game in a while. Considering next season might be very critical for evaluating Winston, they might wanna see how Winston would look with a star RB. I would defo do it even if we get atleast a 3rd Rd Pick in return

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

7 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

 

I mean, we all know they need help at OL, but it's going to be a difficult road to doing that. A road that should still be explored, but difficult nonetheless.

 

I just can't justify taking our 2nd round pick TE last year who, by all accounts, is supposed to be a pretty damn good tight end and throwing him by the way side in favor of a guy who can't stay healthy and hasn't done a thing in his career up until this point.

Also, getting a pick back from Cook will help that process of fixing the OL rather than simply saying "It's too difficult. Let's just get another TE."

I really like the thinking of trading Cook for a player that can help now rather than a "maybe" that comes with a draft pick but TE just isn't a position we need and, in my opinion, Howard isnt a guy that's going to put us over the top.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

But since the talk seems to be mostly focused on Howard's lack of production.

Let me clarify, that's kind of the point. He is big time talent who, as I said earlier, has great rate statistics (which could point to future dividends).

The team would be taking a risk, but they'd be getting a player who could return value short term (a rookie TE can't do that) and long term. As I also said earlier, it might be unconventional, but he might be a TE who exploits a market inefficiency compared to most TEs. He has Gronkian ability and could offer a similar value to what Kittle is giving thr 9ers right now. I.e. can be a major contributor in the running game, but also helps the team pivot to a passing attack when needed.

Would love to hear of some other players who could offer similar upside for smallish investment.

I understand your argument, but aren't the Vikings kind of set at TE for the foreseeable future, even if Rudolph walks?  I think Smith has the chance to be a special player.  Maybe not Gronkowski, but I think he might have a little Shannon Sharpe in him.

[Dolmonite26]

30 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

I understand your argument, but aren't the Vikings kind of set at TE for the foreseeable future, even if Rudolph walks?  I think Smith has the chance to be a special player.  Maybe not Gronkowski, but I think he might have a little Shannon Sharpe in him.

Yeah, that's certainly the big caveat that maybe puts a hole in the whole thing.

My thinking is that Howard offers a unique opportunity to land a player with loads of potential for pretty cheap and he is most likely a much better blocker than Smith will ever be. So it's a path way to bolstering the teams pass/run blocking and if you can get an extra 6m in cap space out of it by including Rudy in the deal so you might be able to by a guard.

I mean, it's a lot of ifs and what's but I was just trying to think of way the team can address their issue on the line and Howard might provide a pathway (albeit a roundabout one) to that.

[JDBrocks]

I don't think the team will have any interest in moving Rudolph given the number of veteran leaders that they are poised to lose this off season.

[vikingsrule]

24 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Yeah, that's certainly the big caveat that maybe puts a hole in the whole thing.

My thinking is that Howard offers a unique opportunity to land a player with loads of potential for pretty cheap and he is most likely a much better blocker than Smith will ever be. So it's a path way to bolstering the teams pass/run blocking and if you can get an extra 6m in cap space out of it by including Rudy in the deal so you might be able to by a guard.

I mean, it's a lot of ifs and what's but I was just trying to think of way the team can address their issue on the line and Howard might provide a pathway (albeit a roundabout one) to that.

I don’t trust an offense on a Zimmer led team to effectively use all of this offensive fire power. We struggled mightily getting just Diggs and Thielen to be focal points in the same game. If Cook is traded, it needs to be for an asset to improve the OL or defense (DT or CB). Anything else just seems like a waste. 

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

2 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Yeah, that's certainly the big caveat that maybe puts a hole in the whole thing.

My thinking is that Howard offers a unique opportunity to land a player with loads of potential for pretty cheap 

I don't think a top-5 running back is "pretty cheap."

I think "pretty cheap" would be a late 3rd-ish. Then we're talking!

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

2 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

I don’t trust an offense on a Zimmer led team to effectively use all of this offensive fire power. We struggled mightily getting just Diggs and Thielen to be focal points in the same game. If Cook is traded, it needs to be for an asset to improve the OL or defense (DT or CB). Anything else just seems like a waste. 

Right. Vikings offense had 3rd fewest pass attempts in the league.

After Diggs, Thielen, and the WRs get theirs, will there really be enough attempts left to justify needing two tight ends?

And I don't expect Zimmer to change is entire philosophy into a two TE type of offense. It's just not what he does. 

[swede700]

11 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

Right. Vikings offense had 3rd fewest pass attempts in the league.

After Diggs, Thielen, and the WRs get theirs, will there really be enough attempts left to justify needing two tight ends?

And I don't expect Zimmer to change is entire philosophy into a two TE type of offense. It's just not what he does. 

Who had the 4th fewest pass attempts?  The Super Bowl bound 49ers.

[Dolmonite26]

1 hour ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

I don't think a top-5 running back is "pretty cheap."

I think "pretty cheap" would be a late 3rd-ish. Then we're talking!

I suspect that Cook's trade value will be about a 3rd and since TB needs an RB it seemed to add up, but it was really only a suggestion.

The real taking point is what's the interest in Howard for a ~3rd? which seems to be low I guess