VikeManDan Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: ToP is entirely descriptive and says very little about how and why a team wins/loses I'm not saying it is the end all be all but I find it an interesting stat to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 53 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: Lol that's such a misrepresentation of how things played out. Jimmy G just couldn't close on key plays when he needed to. Is it really bad to pass on 2nd and 9 after a 1 yard run? How about 3 and 14 after a false start plenty? Running on 2nd and 5 would have been ok instead of passing twice and going 3 and out when they needed to burn some clock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrplChilPill Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Virginia Viking said: Philosophy question. Has the salary cap hurt or helped? I'm torn. I think it's hurt players on the whole, but it's made more teams competitive. Yet on the other side, the football seems more boring, more conservative to me. What do y'all think?? Caps always hurt the workers. I'm not sure the cap plays into the style of play, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said: Running on 2nd and 5 would have been ok instead of passing twice and going 3 and out when they needed to burn some clock I mean sure, but wasn't it a 3 point lead at that point? It's not like you running is the obvious thing to do is all I'm saying and Shannahan is right, extending drives is better than just running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: I mean sure, but wasn't it a 3 point lead at that point? It's not like you running is the obvious thing to do is all I'm saying and Shannahan is right, extending drives is better than just running Running is their bread and butter though. Running the ball isn't giving up on the possession I didn't get the play calling at the end of the half though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Just now, vikesfan89 said: Running is their bread and butter though. Running the ball isn't giving up on the possession I didn't get the play calling at the end of the half though Yeah that's fair, the run game was cooking, all I'm saying is that I don't think the 49ers problem was as simple as not running enough. The Chiefs defense balled out at the end and Garapalo was awful at the end of the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Over the long haul, I'm still not sold on caps hurting the workers. It certainly hurts them in the short-run, but eventually there's diminishing returns on having no cap, which I think is what has happened in baseball and, to a lesser extent, the NBA, which does have a cap, but not a real cap, as far as I'm concerned. If there is no cap, there creates a real cavern between the haves and have-nots, both on the worker side and the employer side which is clearly evident in baseball, and thus creates a lack of competitiveness in the league as a whole, which, over time, leads to lower revenue, which certainly impacts player salaries. The cap creates a slower upward trend, but it still goes upward and eventually, at least I believe, a higher overall ceiling (sort of a tortoise-hare situation). People will often also indicate the average salary as an argument that caps hurt the workers. However, it is a flawed argument, considering the job generation disparities between the leagues. Sure, the NFL average salary is lower, but there are far more jobs available in the NFL than any other league, so supply and demand indicates a lower salary. In the end, I still feel the cap is a necessary evil to maintain the competitiveness, and hence interest in the league, over the long term. But, I do agree that the style of play is completely unrelated to the cap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babababa Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 30 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said: Lol that's such a misrepresentation of how things played out. Jimmy G just couldn't close on key plays when he needed to. Is it really bad to pass on 2nd and 9 after a 1 yard run? How about 3 and 14 after a false start plenty? Congrats on finding a couple of plays where the 49ers had to pass the ball aside from their final possession down by 11. The possession after the one you're referring to -- the 49ers had a 5 yard run on 1st and chose to pass the next 2 downs going 3 and out. Even when they were down by 4 points they had the ball at mid-field with 3 timeouts and decided to pass it out of the shotgun 4 straight times. With half a field to work with and 1:49 left with 3 timeouts? They had plenty of time to mix in the run while eating up the clock to score the winning TD. Hindsight is 2020, but the 49ers got away from their identity that made them VERY successful and that was my original point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, babababa said: Congrats on finding a couple of plays where the 49ers had to pass the ball aside from their final possession down by 11. The possession after the one you're referring to -- the 49ers had a 5 yard run on 1st and chose to pass the next 2 downs going 3 and out. Even when they were down by 4 points they had the ball at mid-field with 3 timeouts and decided to pass it out of the shotgun 4 straight times. With half a field to work with and 1:49 left with 3 timeouts? They had plenty of time to mix in the run while eating up the clock to score the winning TD. Hindsight is 2020, but the 49ers got away from their identity that made them VERY successful and that was my original point. They had one of the most efficient passing games in the league this year... On that 2nd and 5 in question. Kittle (I.e. the entire teams best player) was matched up with Terrell Suggs for crying out load. He was wide open and Garapalo threw it to the turf, but no, play calling was the issue Edited February 3, 2020 by Dolmonite26 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Dolmonite26 said: and Garapalo threw it to the turf, Actually, Chris Jones made a great play and knocked it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmonite26 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, SemperFeist said: Actually, Chris Jones made a great play and knocked it down. Fair enough, couldn't remember how the play ended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, swede700 said: But, I do agree that the style of play is completely unrelated to the cap. Stay with me here, as I lay out my theory...which more than likely is farfetched! So, who are the most affordable players? Those on their rookie contracts. Whose salary takes the biggest single chunk of a teams cap? The quarterback. So you have a lot of well-paid and longer tenured quarterbacks, playing with a lot of other players on their rookie contracts, or contract extensions. If well-paid quarterback has a decent OL (Dallas), he's pretty damn lucky, because no team can keep a high functioning offensive line for long because of the salary cap. Or, if the quarterback is teamed with a dynamic running game or super receivers, it won't last, as the team cannot afford said well-paid quarterback and others looking to get a bigger chunk of the cap. So, coaches are coaching teams and against other teams that are constantly changing, trying to bottle lightning for a season, such as the Chiefs and the 49'er's, but most of these teams will be mediocre. Fans will keep thinking that their mediocre teams are one or two players away from a championship, but where are those players most likely to come from? The draft...rookie contracts...high priced free agency (except for quarterbacks) is pretty dead. Rookies, especially linemen come with certain challenges. Offensive linemen receive terrible coaching at the college level, and a lot of bad habits have to be worked out. Running backs don't usually last more than 4 or 5 years. Good receivers are plentiful, but not cheap. Rookie receivers sometimes have a great deal of difficulty learning the nuances of the professional route tree. I haven't even mentioned the defensive side of the ball! With young players who don't last on anyone team more than 4 or 5 years, coaches and coordinators put in pretty conservative schemes. Short passes and lots of option plays...thus the rise of the athletic quarterback versus the pocket passer. The athletic quarterback helps an offense overcome bad line play. Trouble is, there is only one Deshaun Watson, one Lamar Jackson and one Patrick Mahomes. Thus the play in the NFL is effected by the salary cap for all but a very few teams. The Vikings ain't one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrplChilPill Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said: Stay with me here, as I lay out my theory...which more than likely is farfetched! So, who are the most affordable players? Those on their rookie contracts. Whose salary takes the biggest single chunk of a teams cap? The quarterback. So you have a lot of well-paid and longer tenured quarterbacks, playing with a lot of other players on their rookie contracts, or contract extensions. If well-paid quarterback has a decent OL (Dallas), he's pretty damn lucky, because no team can keep a high functioning offensive line for long because of the salary cap. Or, if the quarterback is teamed with a dynamic running game or super receivers, it won't last, as the team cannot afford said well-paid quarterback and others looking to get a bigger chunk of the cap. So, coaches are coaching teams and against other teams that are constantly changing, trying to bottle lightning for a season, such as the Chiefs and the 49'er's, but most of these teams will be mediocre. Fans will keep thinking that their mediocre teams are one or two players away from a championship, but where are those players most likely to come from? The draft...rookie contracts...high priced free agency (except for quarterbacks) is pretty dead. Rookies, especially linemen come with certain challenges. Offensive linemen receive terrible coaching at the college level, and a lot of bad habits have to be worked out. Running backs don't usually last more than 4 or 5 years. Good receivers are plentiful, but not cheap. Rookie receivers sometimes have a great deal of difficulty learning the nuances of the professional route tree. I haven't even mentioned the defensive side of the ball! With young players who don't last on anyone team more than 4 or 5 years, coaches and coordinators put in pretty conservative schemes. Short passes and lots of option plays...thus the rise of the athletic quarterback versus the pocket passer. The athletic quarterback helps an offense overcome bad line play. Trouble is, there is only one Deshaun Watson, one Lamar Jackson and one Patrick Mahomes. Thus the play in the NFL is effected by the salary cap for all but a very few teams. The Vikings ain't one of them. Play is effected by only having a handful of humans on the planet that can play QB at the highest level......And if the players come from teh draft, how does the cap change that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrplChilPill Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 All I know is that Zimmer would have kicked a FG on 4th and 1 from inside the five, and not gotten the TD......both times he would have kicked a FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said: All I know is that Zimmer would have kicked a FG on 4th and 1 from inside the five, and not gotten the TD......both times he would have kicked a FG. Maybe. Hard to predict. Andy Reid is more conservative than Zimmer in those situations. Yet, he chose to go for it yesterday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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