Moving On To 2020/2021.

[tmass006]

On 2/2/2020 at 9:17 PM, tmass006 said:

Elflein aka Farva from Super Troopers isn't that hard to cut.. Been a liability all season.

 

On 2/3/2020 at 6:49 AM, Nozizaki said:

On a rookie deal? He's a good run blocker and solid depth, he just shouldn't be starting.

I'd take an average run blocker over a pass blocking turnstile any day. Since when is being good at 50% of your job acceptable? How long would a receiver be starting when dropping 50% of his passes? Just my opinion though. 😊

[Vikes22]

2 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

This is SUCH a bad take. Which QB led the league in passing TDs this year?

@Dolmonite26 summarized my thoughts, but predicting injuries is a terrible argument against a player.

No it’s not!!! You have 250 LB’s that run 4.5 in the 40 now. You pay a QB to do his job? That is, throwing the ball down field.... bottom line.. Again, I’ll take the pocket passer ( who can scramble when need be) all day, everyday... 

Just like the draft this year. What kind of QB is Burrows? Tua? Herbert? Pocket passers that can run if need be..

 

When Jackson and Murray get concessions from not sliding when they get hit, explain to people why that happened.. Don’t blame the defensive players for a bad hit.. It will happen..

[Dolmonite26]

10 minutes ago, Vikes22 said:

When Jackson and Murray get concessions from not sliding when they get hit, explain to people why that happened.. Don’t blame the defensive players for a bad hit.. It will happen

And when the pocket passer gets slammed on a blindside tackle, the most impactful hit in sports?

Do we cheer him cause at least he's not a duel threat QB who's a savant at avoiding direct contact?

[MikeT14]

TCMD update Post Round 1 Free Agency

Roster going in to it

Elflein and Griffen traded. Released Watts, Joseph, Morgan, Rhodes. Restructured a number of guys. Extended Kirk. Traded for Montae Nicholson to be my main safety backup. Claimed Wideman, punter off waivers, as well as Kyle Kalis, a center. Claims for Ham and Wilson.

Round 1 action: I wanted to resign Alexander as my CB2, as well as pursue Byron Jones to be my elite corner, Maliek Collins to replace Joseph on a 5 year deal, Michael Bennett to replace Griffen on a 2 year deal, and I had a reserve bid held on Weatherly because he is a great 3rd DE option. 

Let me warn you, this is my first time doing this, so I did not know what to expect in regards to what people would do, nor how it would go. My cap space is obviously a lot more limited than a lot of others. 

Results:

1)I got Collins, DT on a 5 year $13.5 million dollar deal which I thought was a steal for him. It's a good start to replacing Joseph in my book. 

2) I also got Michael Bennett, DE - 2 years, $5.6 million. It is pretty backloaded though, and operated well as a 1 year deal as well if needed. He's no Griffen, but I didn't want to be completely helpless. 

3) I lost out on Weatherly. I tried guys, but the Rams REALLY wanted him. They signed him to a 5 year, $25 million dollar deal... I had offered him a lot less than that. Wasn't even close. 

4) Easily lost out on Byron Jones - 5 teams went after him. Denver got him at 5 years 88 million. I was at I think $60. Learning curve on that one too.

5) Mackenize Alexander is gone. Someone is paying him $10 million per year. I was at around $7. 

6) I also got Cody Thompson, WR off the PS from the Seahawks. Good special teams player and camp body. Could fight for a spot.

So, I still need a starting RT, CB (need at least two somewhere), and some backups. Here are my draft picks. I'll be looking to move up and down appropriately. 

Ovrall: 25 | 1ST Rnd. - Pick: 25

Ovrall: 58 | 2ND Rnd. - Pick: 26

Ovrall: 89 | 3RD Rnd. - Pick: 25

Ovrall: 115 | 4TH Rnd. - Pick: 12

Ovrall: 138 | 4TH Rnd. - Pick: 35

Ovrall: 182 | 6TH Rnd. - Pick: 6

Ovrall: 198 | 6TH Rnd. - Pick: 22

Ovrall: 220 | 7TH Rnd. - Pick: 2

Ovrall: 238 | 7TH Rnd. - Pick: 20

Ovrall: 240 | 7TH Rnd. - Pick: 22

[vikestyle]

10 hours ago, Vikes22 said:

No it’s not!!! You have 250 LB’s that run 4.5 in the 40 now. You pay a QB to do his job? That is, throwing the ball down field.... bottom line.. Again, I’ll take the pocket passer ( who can scramble when need be) all day, everyday... 

Just like the draft this year. What kind of QB is Burrows? Tua? Herbert? Pocket passers that can run if need be..

 

When Jackson and Murray get concessions from not sliding when they get hit, explain to people why that happened.. Don’t blame the defensive players for a bad hit.. It will happen..

So you would rather have a QB like Tua over Jackson because you think Jackson could get hurt. Makes sense. Noted healthy man Tua.

[vikestyle]

I also don't think Cam Newton and RG3 are good predictors of Lamar's injury probabilities. Cam is a bulldozing runner and RG3 was fast but not nearly the elusive runner that Lamar is. The only comparable thing we've seen to Lamar is Vick, and I don't even think that's a perfect comparison. With the regression of offensive line play in the NFL, mobility is more important than ever. Yes, if you can get a Mahomes, Rodgers, or Wilson who have pinpoint accuracy 40+ yards downfield and can also outrun dlineman if they crash inside that's great. There's also not many guys like that.

I don't think there is just one way to get things done. Lamar's ability to run helps him get wide open receivers in the middle of the field. He doesn't have to be pinpoint accurate to be a successful QB. I think Kyler is the same type of guy. I know that the historical precedent is that running QB's get hurt more, but these guys are special athletes. We also saw Mahomes get hurt on a QB sneak this year and have seen Rodgers get hurt scrambling outside the pocket as well. 

Lastly, saying you couldn't blame a defender for concussing a QB that doesn't slide is flat out stupid. When a defender goes high on a wide receiver going across the middle and concusses them, you think that the receiver should have slid? What about when the QB does slide and gets his head bounced off the turf like Teddy? 

[Dolmonite26]

28 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

I don't think there is just one way to get things done. Lamar's ability to run helps him get wide open receivers in the middle of the field. He doesn't have to be pinpoint accurate to be a successful QB. I think Kyler is the same type of guy.

Since it hasn't been brought up, it's worth mentioning that Jackson took huge strides this season as a passer.

He was already vastly under appreciated in his abilities as a passer (hmm wonder why...)  and showed a lot of promise there his rookie year. Strong pocket presence and a much better understanding of nuanced aspects of the position even going back to his Louisville days. He has just had trouble with consistent accuracy, albeit he can be absolutely pin point at times, and this season he maximized all that potential as a passer.

I find it frustrating how much he gets dawged as a thrower and how so many act like "he'll get figured out" when he's a better passer than many of his contemporaries in age or experience.

I'm less bullish on Murry's long term outlook but it's also worth noting that he is as accurate as it gets.

[Dolmonite26]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-deal-or-no-deal-2020-free-agent-edition

"DEAL: CB BYRON JONES (5 YRS – $16M AVG/YR)

$50.5m guaranteed, $80m total

Thirty-six different cornerbacks have played over 1,000 coverage snaps over the last two seasons, and among them, Jones ranks fourth in PFF coverage grade. His 18.9% forced incompletion rate ranks fourth at the position among 69 players who have seen 100 or more targets over those two season"

 

This isn't the first time I've said it, but taking a big swing and signing a player like Jones is championship caliber move. Obviously it might not even be possible for them to do it given the cap constraints (there are ways), but they should be making a plan to imo.

 

Edit: what's the deal with the quote formatting? I can't get that section from the article to be in a quote box by itself, everytime i try everything goes into the box

Edited February 9, 2020 by Dolmonite26

[vikingsrule]

I’m all for a huge offseason signing over bringing back some of our own. I’d love to find a way to get Chris Jones but a top ranked CB would do wonders for this defense too.

[Vikes22]

21 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

I’m all for a huge offseason signing over bringing back some of our own. I’d love to find a way to get Chris Jones but a top ranked CB would do wonders for this defense too.

I agree vikingsrule. A CB who can do it all is what we need.. would be a great fit.

[Dolmonite26]

Considering team needs its a really good fit because history with Zim tells us we can't rely on a rookie CB and if this team wants to go all in on 2020 they should focus on the secondary and the offensive line mostly with playmakers on offense and a 3t after that.

Imo of course

[Dolmonite26]

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

I’m all for a huge offseason signing over bringing back some of our own. I’d love to find a way to get Chris Jones but a top ranked CB would do wonders for this defense too.

 

A shut down corner is generally more valuable than a 3T so picking between the two would come down to how much faith they have in Huges and Hill I would think, and likely would require bringing back Alexander as well. Its certainly more of an upside move but they'd be betting big of the young guys so pretty risky too

[RpMc]

2 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

 

A shut down corner is generally more valuable than a 3T so picking between the two would come down to how much faith they have in Huges and Hill I would think, and likely would require bringing back Alexander as well. Its certainly more of an upside move but they'd be betting big of the young guys so pretty risky too

I disagree with the first statement, heavily. A dominant 3T makes the job of everyone else on the defense that much easier in both the run and pass game. With the ways teams move receivers around with motions, shifts, or playing them from the slot, a shut down corner is far less valuable. 
 

interior pressure and penetration is far more disruptive to a QB and passing game than a shut down corner locking down one player. Much easier to scheme around the corner.

 

to each their own though.  

[Dolmonite26]

@RpMc

It's an interesting discussion in football theory/team building quite honestly, and I'm not fully convicted at this point that Coverage > pass rush or ,even more specifically, CB>3T

However Pff has a series of publications on the subject that, while far from definitive, are at least thought provoking.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-data-study-coverage-vs-pass-rush

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-data-study-coverage-vs-pass-rush-revisited

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-data-study-coverage-vs-pass-rush-part-three

I think you are also oversimplify the effect a shut down corner has on both a defense and an offense. A shadow corner who can remove wr1s isn't something an offense can easily overcome, as that's often (always?) their best weapon. Which removing obviously has massive consequence. 

Corners who can shut down an entire side, ala peak Sherman, might be even more valuable as they limit the offense to only being able to attack 2//3 of the field which the defense now has an easier time of defending due to the numbers superiority.

We often underappreciated the idea of coverage sacks as well. Good coverage helps your pass rush and gives them more time to make big time plays (strip sacks are normally a bigger gain for your offense). It's also easier to manufacture pressure than hide bad coverage. Protection units are only as good as their weakest link.

Finally i don't think you are correct about the effect of interior pressure on QBs. Due to QBs being able to see it they are more easily able to subdue it by either getting the ball out quicker or by side stepping it. Edge pressure is more effective because it's harder for an offense to manage and most of the answers have steep drawbacks, such as max protect.

Aaron Donald, and even Chris Jones for that matter, are stark exceptions and while I can probably buy Chris Jones over Byron Jones, the former is going to cost a lot more

Edited February 9, 2020 by Dolmonite26

[Nozizaki]

On 2/8/2020 at 7:56 PM, tmass006 said:

I'd take an average run blocker over a pass blocking turnstile any day. Since when is being good at 50% of your job acceptable? How long would a receiver be starting when dropping 50% of his passes? Just my opinion though. 😊

Unfortunately that's probably pretty good for an NFL backup O-Lineman. Keep in mind that Rashod Hill is one of the best backup tackles in the game, since he can step in for a game or two and hold his own, but is really exploitable in one on one pass and run blocking. We have to reset our expectations with Elflein. He's a good and cheap backup and I think the Vikings have too many other needs to replace him. However they can save $2.1M by cutting him with only $200K in dead money. So I would be fine releasing him, as well. He just absolutely cannot be starting.