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The Quinn Drafts - 2016-2018


TL-TwoWinsAway

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31 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

If you think stating you think I'm fired up weakens my points and strengthens yours, you're wrong. 

If JD is "awful" in pass coverage, but "decent" against the run, I don't see how it's a good pick. (I would argue JD isn't very good against the run either, but whatever). You don't pick a LB in the 1st round to be a decent 2 down LB. A solid starter isn't someone you need to take off the field on 3rd downs. 

How can you tell what kind of a player someone will be in 6 games, but not know what kind of a coach someone is in 32?

I never argued that Davis is 'good', so I agree: I don't see how he's a good pick.

Again, evaluating a coach is different than evaluating players. I don't need Stafford to be healthy to know that Davis struggles in pass coverage, or to see Agnew's impact in the return game. Stafford's injury had a direct and significant impact on our record this year, which is why I can't conclude if Patricia is a good coach or not. That doesn't mean that we can't observe the performance of other players.

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I never argued that Davis is 'good', so I agree: I don't see how he's a good pick.

On 1/12/2020 at 9:55 AM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I think there's a discussion to be had whether his draft decisions were actually poor choices.

In my opinion, a pick is not a bust if it at least reaches the following standard: Top 10 picks - good players; 1st and 2nd round picks - solid starters; 3rd round picks - developing into starters/contributors; 4th round picks - on roster/contributors; 5th round picks - on roster; 6th and 7th round picks - cannot bust. (Bold: reaches this standard.)

1 (21) - Jarrad Davis

Now, I imagine that my standard for "busting" will be a point of discussion, and that's fine, but Quinn's number of busts is actually pretty low: Teez Tabor is the poster boy for busting (and players like JuJu Smith-Schuster, Alvin Kamara and Cooper Kupp were taken closely after) and Michael Roberts was an unfortunate miss. Other than that, and as far as the draft, where has Quinn gone wrong?

There are two ways a pick can turn out. It can be a good pick, or it can be a bad pick.

Based on your bolding of JD's name on your list, you're clearly saying he wasn't a bad pick (or a poor choice/bust) You even go as far to ask "Where has Quinn gone wrong?" while bolding JD as one of his victories. No you didn't say the sentence "Davis is good" but within the context of our discussion, it's the only logical take on your stance.

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Again, evaluating a coach is different than evaluating players. I don't need Stafford to be healthy to know that Davis struggles in pass coverage, or to see Agnew's impact in the return game. Stafford's injury had a direct and significant impact on our record this year, which is why I can't conclude if Patricia is a good coach or not. That doesn't mean that we can't observe the performance of other players.

 

You need Stafford to be healthy to make an opinion on a coaches performance? Don't you need to evaluate the entire context, not just the record of a coach? You aren't able to make an opinion on game planning? Time management? Locker room management? In game adjustments? Etc?

The 24 games Patricia had Stafford as his QB didn't show you more than the handful of games Rogers was able to play healthy the first two years? 

Consistently inconsistent TL. 

 
 
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I don't think a player is 'bad' if that player isn't 'good'. I believe that a player can fall between them. So, yep: I never called Davis 'good'. Absolutely consistent.

If we're not considering record, I think Patricia has been a decent coach. The occasional mistake, absolutely, and I question some of his personnel decisions, but the competitiveness of the roster cannot be ignored. (After the Chiefs' game this year, many on this forum were fully behind Patricia.) Regardless, it often takes more time to evaluate a coach than it does a player, in my opinion.

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20 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I don't think a player is 'bad' if that player isn't 'good'. I believe that a player can fall between them. So, yep: I never called Davis 'good'. Absolutely consistent.

If we're not considering record, I think Patricia has been a decent coach. The occasional mistake, absolutely, and I question some of his personnel decisions, but the competitiveness of the roster cannot be ignored. (After the Chiefs' game this year, many on this forum were fully behind Patricia.) Regardless, it often takes more time to evaluate a coach than it does a player, in my opinion.

Bad and good are too simplistic.

There are great players, good players, average players, bad players. Some guys are really good at a specific role but not very good at anything else. Draft position is another factor. 

In 2017, we had a huge need at linebacker. It really was boiling down to Reuben Foster (talent) and Jarrad Davis (character). We went with JD. Other options that were floated around at the time were Taco Charlton, Jabrill Peppers. I would love to see if anyone here selected Tredavius White in a mock. I don't think so but ya never know. 

JD has been really up and down but the whole 2017 draft was pretty spotty for where we were picking. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

Bad and good are too simplistic.

There are great players, good players, average players, bad players. Some guys are really good at a specific role but not very good at anything else. Draft position is another factor. 

In 2017, we had a huge need at linebacker. It really was boiling down to Reuben Foster (talent) and Jarrad Davis (character). We went with JD. Other options that were floated around at the time were Taco Charlton, Jabrill Peppers. I would love to see if anyone here selected Tredavius White in a mock. I don't think so but ya never know. 

JD has been really up and down but the whole 2017 draft was pretty spotty for where we were picking. 

There are varying degrees of good and bad. 

Draft picks have value. The draft is basically teams investing in prospects. There is a line in the sand with each pick where a prospect either is a good return on the investment, or a poor return on the investment.

There are plenty of examples of great returns on the investment, and terrible returns (Jamarcus Russell was a poor pick. He was the number one overall pick who was a terrible professional football player. He was drafted right before several future HOFers. Tom Brady was an good pick. He was drafted 199th overall and has won 6 freaking Super Bowls. ). 

Although I disagree with how TL implemented it, his scale grading BQ's picks in the OP reflect that. 

JD has been a poor return on the investment made in him. He was a bad pick.

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1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

If Davis were a top 10 pick, I'd think it was wasted value. He wasn't. He's a decent player that was selected 21st overall, and has a skillset that can be an asset for a defense. He just has to stop being put in a position to cover.

So you consider him a good return on the pick used? 

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18 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I don't view him as a bust. I view him as a decent player that has a role on a defense, and that we've often used him in a manner that doesn't suit his strengths.

I'd read between the lines and call it good, but you get upset when I do that.

So.... was Jarred Davis worth the pick used on him? Yes or no?

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28 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I'd read between the lines and call it good, but you get upset when I do that.

So.... was Jarred Davis worth the pick used on him? Yes or no?

Uh, that doesn't mean he's good. I'm not saying that he's good. You can feel free to say whatever you like, but that doesn't make them my words.

Worth the pick? If utilized properly, and considering that he was a late 1st round pick: probably. Considering nearly half of all first round picks fail to make any impact at all, a serviceable two down player isn't a waste. I feel that he just needs to be used properly.

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6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Uh, that doesn't mean he's good. I'm not saying that he's good. You can feel free to say whatever you like, but that doesn't make them my words.

Worth the pick? If utilized properly, and considering that he was a late 1st round pick: probably. Considering nearly half of all first round picks fail to make any impact at all, a serviceable two down player isn't a waste. I feel that he just needs to be used properly.

Four years of watching JD look lost on the field, and you're straddling the fence on if he was worth the pick or not.

I'm 100% certain you would have been leading the "we need more time with Charles Rogers" bandwagon in 2004.

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14 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

There are varying degrees of good and bad. 

Draft picks have value. The draft is basically teams investing in prospects. There is a line in the sand with each pick where a prospect either is a good return on the investment, or a poor return on the investment.

There are plenty of examples of great returns on the investment, and terrible returns (Jamarcus Russell was a poor pick. He was the number one overall pick who was a terrible professional football player. He was drafted right before several future HOFers. Tom Brady was an good pick. He was drafted 199th overall and has won 6 freaking Super Bowls. ). 

Although I disagree with how TL implemented it, his scale grading BQ's picks in the OP reflect that. 

JD has been a poor return on the investment made in him. He was a bad pick.

I do agree with this.  I do believe draft position matters and TL has eluded that position does matter to some degree.  However, I believe there to be a caveat to this. JD was drafted to play for Caldwell in Caldwell's system.  One in which BQ said he wasn't as familiar with as the system he and Patricia are implementing.  So, next to JD, I would asterisk.  For the record, I think JD was a poor ROI and thus a below average pick.

Edited by LionArkie
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14 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

There are varying degrees of good and bad. 

Draft picks have value. The draft is basically teams investing in prospects. There is a line in the sand with each pick where a prospect either is a good return on the investment, or a poor return on the investment.

There are plenty of examples of great returns on the investment, and terrible returns (Jamarcus Russell was a poor pick. He was the number one overall pick who was a terrible professional football player. He was drafted right before several future HOFers. Tom Brady was an good pick. He was drafted 199th overall and has won 6 freaking Super Bowls. ). 

Although I disagree with how TL implemented it, his scale grading BQ's picks in the OP reflect that. 

JD has been a poor return on the investment made in him. He was a bad pick.

Fair points. If we go with your line of reasoning, why did guys like Juju, Kareem and Kittle fall into the 2nd, 3rd and 5th rounds? Kareem Hunt led the league as a rookie that year. We certainly could have used a RB. The draft is a crapshoot. For every Tom Brady there's going to be a 50 or 100 guys that wind up bouncing around and are out of the league in 3 years or less. 

In 2017, we needed a LB in a bad way. It was either Reuben Foster or Jarrad Davis. When they took JD over Foster it was a surprise to most of us. Foster has been a headache with his legal issues and injury issues. Davis is/was the better pick at the time and to this day when you look at what they needed vs who was available. He probably has been given a bit of a longer leash than deserved based on being a 1st round pick. The only guy that might have been a better realistic option is Taco Charlton. Even then, we probably would be having this same conversation if he was the pick over Davis. 

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