Nnivolcm Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: This one is a loss man... might want to leave it where it is. You tried; didn't work out. I really don't see how a reasonable person could see it that way. But you've rarely been reasonable. Quote You shouldn't stand by it. Neither Charles Rogers or Joey Harrington were considered 'good' after the 2004 season. Not even close. (In Rogers case, incredibly far off.) @TL-TwoWinsAway what is your opinion of TJ Hockenson at this moment in time? Edited January 13, 2020 by Nnivolcm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said: In 2004: Injuries derailed Rogers' rookie season. Harrington struggled without his WR who was talented enough to be picked in the top 2 of the NFL draft. Harrington could be a good QB with that kind of talent at WR, or he might not be. We really don't know yet and another year will tell us a lot. Sounds like the TL approach in 2004. So good. Thank you. Using my views about Patricia helps my scale here, as I've stated that I don't know if Patricia is a good coach yet. The standard for a top 10 pick is a "good player". By that standard, Harrington clearly was not, as he hadn't yet been considered one. Clearly a bust. (Using that "2004 TL approach".) Rogers entered 2005 facing a 4 game suspension after recovering from two injuries that ended both 2003 and 2004. He finished 2005 with a career total of 36 receptions and 440 yards, and was being pursued by the Lions for repayment of paid bonuses. Clearly a bust. After four drafts, and using this standard, Millen wasted 4432.4 of draft value more than Quinn. I'd say it speaks volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical_Lions Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 That 2017 draft makes me sad. Really wanted Tre'Davious White or Reuben Foster (yikes!). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, Typical_Lions said: That 2017 draft makes me sad. Really wanted Tre'Davious White or Reuben Foster (yikes!). Foster was projected to be a stud. Hard to blame you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: So good. Thank you. Using my views about Patricia helps my scale here, as I've stated that I don't know if Patricia is a good coach yet. The standard for a top 10 pick is a "good player". By that standard, Harrington clearly was not, as he hadn't yet been considered one. Clearly a bust. (Using that "2004 TL approach".) Rogers entered 2005 facing a 4 game suspension after recovering from two injuries that ended both 2003 and 2004. He finished 2005 with a career total of 36 receptions and 440 yards, and was being pursued by the Lions for repayment of paid bonuses. Clearly a bust. After four drafts, and using this standard, Millen wasted 4432.4 of draft value more than Quinn. I'd say it speaks volumes. How TL of you. Dodging the question of how he would have been viewed in 2004 by pointing out how he finished 2005. It must get tiring working so hard to skew arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said: How TL of you. Dodging the question of how he would have been viewed in 2004 by pointing out how he finished 2005. It must get tiring working so hard to skew arguments. I apologize. When I wrote that, I had believed that 2005 was the last of the four years being discussed. At the end of the 2004 season, Rogers had played in a total of 6 games with a total of 22 receptions for 243 yards. He was clearly not proven to be "good" at this point, and therefore a bust (according to the scale I proposed). The amount of draft value wasted does not change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: I apologize. When I wrote that, I had believed that 2005 was the last of the four years being discussed. At the end of the 2004 season, Rogers had played in a total of 6 games with a total of 22 receptions for 243 yards. He was clearly not proven to be "good" at this point, and therefore a bust (according to the scale I proposed). The amount of draft value wasted does not change. What's your view on TJ Hockenson at this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, Nnivolcm said: What's your view on TJ Hockenson at this time? I like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said: I like him. Based on? Outside of the week 1 performance, he has been as invisible as Rogers was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said: Based on? Outside of the week 1 performance, he has been as invisible as Rogers was. Not only is that quite literally false (Hockenson has played in 12 games this year, as Rogers had only played in 5 during his rookie year), Hockenson also blocked during 2019, as well-rounded TEs tend to do. (In mid October, PFF had ranked Hockenson 20th run-blocking TE out of 70 eligible TEs.) I'm not sure how well Rogers blocked during his 5 appearances, but I don't believe it was "well". Terrible argument. I also stated during the original post that one season is too early to grade. If Hockenson gets injured and misses the entire 2020 season, he wouldn't have proved that he's "good", and would therefore be considered a "bust". Logic checks out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Not only is that quite literally false (Hockenson has played in 12 games this year, as Rogers had only played in 5 during his rookie year), Hockenson also blocked during 2019, as well-rounded TEs tend to do. (In mid October, PFF had ranked Hockenson 20th run-blocking TE out of 70 eligible TEs.) I'm not sure how well Rogers blocked during his 5 appearances, but I don't believe it was "well". Terrible argument. I also stated during the original post that one season is too early to grade. If Hockenson gets injured and misses the entire 2020 season, he wouldn't have proved that he's "good", and would therefore be considered a "bust". Logic checks out. I'm just trying to figure out when hindsight kicks in for you. You've been inconsistent so far. 2 years of Patricia. Not enough info, need more time 2 years of Rogers shortened by injuries. The kind of injuries players come back from all the time. Bust! 1 year of Hockenson where you're highlighting him as the 20th best blocking TE. (lol?) Good enough player to be liked by TL. Hasn't earned the dreaded "need more info" label at this point, might earn it later if TL appears wrong. 4 years of Jarrad Davis constantly being a liability. Being repeatedly benched by two coaching staffs for inadequate play. Was one of the weakest links in a front seven full of weak links in 2019. "Solid starter" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 You seem kinda fired up. I don't view this standard as being the same for coaches. I've always believed, and stated repeatedly, that coaches should get 3 years. That isn't the same for a 2nd overall and 3rd overall pick. According to this standard, Davis only has to be "solid". He's awful in pass coverage, but decent against the run and has shown that he can provide occasional pressure when tasked. Is that a 'good' player? Absolutely not. If used properly, is he 'solid'? I think so. Has he been used properly? I don't think he has. The beauty of this place is you're welcome to disagree. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a different standard between players and coaches, and players should be viewed after two years. I've been consistent, and I think it's reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lions017 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Quinn has done ok. My problem is that he always just seems to do alright - none of these guys are really superstars. He tends to play it really safe and get guys who end up being decent starters or backups or good special teamers but not any studs. He has been good at avoiding complete busts (except for Tabor) but hasn't really found a killer draft yet. Edited January 13, 2020 by Lions017 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 23 minutes ago, Lions017 said: Quinn has done ok. My problem is that he always just seems to do alright - none of these guys are really superstars. He tends to play it really safe and get guys who end up being decent starters or backups or good special teamers but not any studs. He has been good at avoiding complete busts (except for Tabor) but hasn't really found a killer draft yet. I guess we'll find out this year. I don't think Hockenson will ever be a superstar, although I believe he'll be a very good player for a long time, but he finally has a top pick to play with. I'll also say that Golladay is getting close to being that top tier player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Ha. Aha. Haha. You compared only four of Millen's drafts, ones where he completely missed on a 2nd overall pick and 3rd overall pick, to Quinn's first drafts. So good. Neither Harrington nor Rodgers were good players, but you know this. If you call Davis and Decker good picks, Harrington was too. Rogers was a good player who had injuries and drugs derail his career. He is a bust for sure, as is Harrington and Davis and Decker. Decker is the only close one but if you don’t want your 1st for a second contract (and not because he will be too expensive), that’s a bust IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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