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Broncos fire OC Rich Scangarello

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Perfect example of WCO variations today. Titans basically run the Bill Walsh offense, the original WCO. Lots of I formation, pro sets, little shotgun and run heavy. Thats what Scangarello favors and uses. Same as both Shanahans and Kubiak.

KC also uses whats called a WCO but a far cry from the original. Shotgun being the basic formation.

Big difference!

We just gave up the Walsh WCO for a pass heavy, shotgun version. I pretty much hate it.

 

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3 hours ago, AKRNA said:

Perfect example of WCO variations today. Titans basically run the Bill Walsh offense, the original WCO. Lots of I formation, pro sets, little shotgun and run heavy. Thats what Scangarello favors and uses. Same as both Shanahans and Kubiak.

KC also uses whats called a WCO but a far cry from the original. Shotgun being the basic formation.

Big difference!

We just gave up the Walsh WCO for a pass heavy, shotgun version. I pretty much hate it.

 

You hate it while the Chiefs for the most part shut down the best running game in football with one of the worst run defenses?

There are variations and factors that play into all of this.  The biggest being with the Titans....Ryan Tannehill at QB, there were literally times KC had 10 men in the box stopping the run.  

Further, the Shanahan WCO has taken on more of the shotgun/gadget play style than anything that resembles the Titans.  The Titans ran an old school smash mouth system out of necessity. 

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1 hour ago, germ-x said:

You hate it while the Chiefs for the most part shut down the best running game in football with one of the worst run defenses?

There are variations and factors that play into all of this.  The biggest being with the Titans....Ryan Tannehill at QB, there were literally times KC had 10 men in the box stopping the run.  

Further, the Shanahan WCO has taken on more of the shotgun/gadget play style than anything that resembles the Titans.  The Titans ran an old school smash mouth system out of necessity. 

All I'm pointing out is the difference between the two offenses while both are called West Coast. Little if any similarity. 

Don't think this is an easy transition from one to the other. 

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21 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

All I'm pointing out is the difference between the two offenses while both are called West Coast. Little if any similarity. 

Don't think this is an easy transition from one to the other. 

Yeah, but it still doesn’t take everything into context.  The Chiefs have a crappy OL, both in pass blocking and run blocking.  They also don’t have anything at RB....the Chiefs live and die off Mahomes arm because they have too and their best weapons are receivers.

The 49ers have the best overall talent/team in the NFL top to bottom.  Their OL has 4 top 50 selections.  Their DL has 4 1st round picks....they ALWAYS win the LOS. They have the best blocking TE in arguably the history of the football....they have the best FB in arguably the history of football.

The difference is more about talent acquisition than it is coaching.  SF went all in this year too, with money paid and players/coaches leaving, we will see how special the coaching is there in the next few years.  Good for John Lynch too, he’s the most valuable FO/coach asset this team has.  How he put this roster together and assembled that staff is unbelievable.

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22 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Yeah, but it still doesn’t take everything into context.  The Chiefs have a crappy OL, both in pass blocking and run blocking.  They also don’t have anything at RB....the Chiefs live and die off Mahomes arm because they have too and their best weapons are receivers.

The 49ers have the best overall talent/team in the NFL top to bottom.  Their OL has 4 top 50 selections.  Their DL has 4 1st round picks....they ALWAYS win the LOS. They have the best blocking TE in arguably the history of the football....they have the best FB in arguably the history of football.

The difference is more about talent acquisition than it is coaching.  SF went all in this year too, with money paid and players/coaches leaving, we will see how special the coaching is there in the next few years.  Good for John Lynch too, he’s the most valuable FO/coach asset this team has.  How he put this roster together and assembled that staff is unbelievable.

We disagree. The difference is the system.

Keep in mind, the foundation of the WCO is a passing attack out of running formations. Pre snap sets and lots of motion, timing patterns based on footwork, 3, 5, 7 step drops. Lots of play action. Secondary was developing running plays for the shotgun. Much of that was Shanahan. 

Anyway, when your base offense features 70+% shotgun like Shurmers you've just tossed out the core of Walshes WCO and what makes it unique and so tough to stop. I don't see how an offense can be consider WC if less than half the snaps are under center. 

 

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21 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

We disagree. The difference is the system.

Keep in mind, the foundation of the WCO is a passing attack out of running formations. Pre snap sets and lots of motion, timing patterns based on footwork, 3, 5, 7 step drops. Lots of play action. Secondary was developing running plays for the shotgun. Much of that was Shanahan. 

Anyway, when your base offense features 70+% shotgun like Shurmers you've just tossed out the core of Walshes WCO and what makes it unique and so tough to stop. I don't see how an offense can be consider WC if less than half the snaps are under center. 

 

Idk why, but I feel like this is more a post that Denver won’t run the ball and less to do with how often Denver is in the shotgun, but maybe I’m wrong.

Anyway, the last time Shurmer was an OC, Case Keenum was his starting QB, Latavius Murray/Jerrick McKinnon were splitting carries at RB and they made the NFC Championship game and Keenum, Murray, McKinnon ended up getting set for life that offseason having the best year of their career and probably never will replicate their success during that season.....The Vikings ran the ball the 2nd most in the NFL that season.  

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8 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Idk why, but I feel like this is more a post that Denver won’t run the ball and less to do with how often Denver is in the shotgun, but maybe I’m wrong.

Anyway, the last time Shurmer was an OC, Case Keenum was his starting QB, Latavius Murray/Jerrick McKinnon were splitting carries at RB and they made the NFC Championship game and Keenum, Murray, McKinnon ended up getting set for life that offseason having the best year of their career and probably never will replicate their success during that season.....The Vikings ran the ball the 2nd most in the NFL that season.  

Yup, you're wrong. 

I love the WCO and have since the early 80's. Only a few teams really run it. The 49ers are one. I'm upset that when we canned Scangarello we also pitched IMO the best offensive system in the NFL. Walsh wouldn't recognize what Shurmer runs as a WCO and neither do I.

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18 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

Yup, you're wrong. 

I love the WCO and have since the early 80's. Only a few teams really run it. The 49ers are one. I'm upset that when we canned Scangarello we also pitched IMO the best offensive system in the NFL. Walsh wouldn't recognize what Shurmer runs as a WCO and neither do I.

Guess I am confused on this response.  You say I am wrong, go on to talk about “really running the ball” yet Shurmur last time he was an OC ran the ball the 2nd most times in the league and had 2,000 rushing yards on offense.  

This years Shanahan led 49ers have no doubt been better than that, but they also have a better OL, QB, and overall team....but the difference isn’t that astronomical....6 carries a game and 400 total yards (across the season) is the difference of Kyle Shanahan’s current 49ers and the Par Shurmur led Vikings from 2017 (the last time he was OC). 

Pat Shurmur has shown a willingness to run the football and be as successful at it.

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1 hour ago, germ-x said:

Guess I am confused on this response.  You say I am wrong, go on to talk about “really running the ball” yet Shurmur last time he was an OC ran the ball the 2nd most times in the league and had 2,000 rushing yards on offense.  

This years Shanahan led 49ers have no doubt been better than that, but they also have a better OL, QB, and overall team....but the difference isn’t that astronomical....6 carries a game and 400 total yards (across the season) is the difference of Kyle Shanahan’s current 49ers and the Par Shurmur led Vikings from 2017 (the last time he was OC). 

Pat Shurmur has shown a willingness to run the football and be as successful at it.

I didn't say that, not even close. I said few teams really run the WCO. It has nothing to do with how many times you run the ball, it has to do with the X's and O's of Walsh's WCO.

You're talking about teams and stats and I'm talking about an offensive system, the WCO. We're not communicating well at all.

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Hand-wringing over stylistic preferences. Means nothing. A poorly run Shanahan WCO is unwatchable garbage, just like a poorly run Reid WCO. I have no brand loyalty to any philosophy. 

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I agree with AKRNA they all things being equal a well run WCO (specifically the Shanahan version with its precision timing, misdirections, play action, and bootlegs) is to me, the best offense to watch. 
 

some people prefer spread em out, dishing dimes ala PFM. Others don’t care as long as there are points on the board.

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33 minutes ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

I agree with AKRNA they all things being equal a well run WCO (specifically the Shanahan version with its precision timing, misdirections, play action, and bootlegs) is to me, the best offense to watch. 
 

some people prefer spread em out, dishing dimes ala PFM. Others don’t care as long as there are points on the board.

I fall into the last camp. I guess I "prefer" the Shanahan WCO, but if we're scoring points, at the end of the day that's all I want. It's been too long since we had a dynamic offense.

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If we can maintain our defensive production and average at least 28 points per game, then the Broncos will be in good shape.

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I’d like to remind ppl that last year we were trying to be sold that Joe Flacco and our strong run game would lead us to a solid bridge to finding the QBOTF.   

I really do get the angst over the lack of continuity.   And I think Scangarello did a good job for what he was given.   If there was an OC opening I’d be happy for him if he got another shot.   Just like I thought Shurmur would be a hot target once NYG and he officially parted ways. 

But given our 4 best impact players on O are Sutton, Risner, Lindsay and Fant (apologies to Jano) and Lock’s arm skills, fans are going crazy about Fangio going with an OC whose scheme appears to fit the talent we have.    

I was one of those guys who said there was zero chance we were doing anything with Flacco from Day 1.   And I don’t think Lock is a lock to be our 10-year guy yet (but he’s done nothing but give hope - 5 games isn’t sealing any rookie’s fate, once D’s adjust, that’s all).   But today I would say we literally have 100x more hope than at the start of FA last year.   It’s kind of baffling to me the negativity here.   And I say that as a guy who was called out many times for being negative on Elway’s overall Day 1-2 draft history in 2016-7, Keenum’s signing as a FA and our chances at contention since 2016 ended.   

Fangio / Shurmur could very well fail.   Lock might not be the answer.   I also still firmly believe we need at least one more offseason on rebuild/youth philosophy before we can legitimately contend, and we should avoid win-now FA moves for 1 more offseason and still go young.  But it’s crazy to me how negative we are on the O’s chances heading into 2020 right now compared to last year - when ppl were selling a broken down statue QB and a run based scheme as reason to be optimistic for 2019+.   We have more optimism now than since we won our SB long-term - especially when you add how much Fangio squeezed out of the D for the talent he was given.  We should have so much more optimism about the future on O now than last year.  Weird to say the least.  

Edited by Broncofan

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2 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said:

If we can maintain our defensive production and average at least 28 points per game, then the Broncos will be in good shape.

Not asking much are you. Thats top 5 offense. KC averaged 28.2 this season.

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