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jsthomp2007

Jimmy Johnson vs. Mike Shanahan

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At first, I thought that Jimmah was a HOFer. Now that I think about it, I don't think he was. Here is what he did:

1. He fleeced an idiot in Mike Lynn out of a bunch of draft picks (the Vikings' coaches didn't have a say in the trade. They didn't want him).

2. Who did Jimmuh's teams beat in the SB (and, I consider 95 his team, not Barry's)? Buffaluck (twice in a row. They didn't deserve to be in any of those SB's) and a team with a QB who threw the ball right to their CB. He didn't hang around long enough with that Dallas team to play the AFC Varsity (our team).

Shanahan didn't have a great career. He made too many mistakes. However, he may be more of a HOF coach than Cowher (who rode the back of Lebeau's Zone Blitz D) or Jimmuh.

Edited by 7DnBrnc53

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Mike Shanahan in a nutshell:

As HC (1995-1998)

Regular season record:  47-17 (.734)

Post season record: 7-1 (.875) with two Super Bowls. 

 

As HC/VP of football ops (1999-2008, 2010-2013)

Regular season record: 115-109(.563)

Post season record: 1-5 (.166) With zero Super Bowls.   

 

Shanny was the best X’s and O’s coach I’ve ever seen and he routinely schooled Belichick throughout his career. But he couldn’t build a team to save his life. He was also kind of a jerk that several players mentioned not liking to play for. And that’s all fine and dandy until the losing starts. In my mind, had he just stuck to coaching, he would have won at least 1-2 more Superbowls here and would easily be in the top 5 HC of all time discussion. Sometimes you gotta be willing to spot your weaknesses more than your strengths. 

Edited by 1234567
Excluded earlier short stint with LA Raiders

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Mike Shanahan gets WAAAYYYY too much credit from Bronco fans.  I get it, he was a key cog in getting the franchise a SB win, but he had a terrific 2 year run on a team that he inherited most of the key pieces.  In 14 years after Elway retired Mike Shanahan had 1 playoff win......that’s bad.

Edited by germ-x

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2 hours ago, germ-x said:

Mike Shanahan gets WAAAYYYY too much credit from Bronco fans.  I get it, he was a key cog in getting the franchise a SB win, but he had a terrific 2 year run on a team that he inherited most of the key pieces.  In 14 years after Elway retired Mike Shanahan had 1 playoff win......that’s bad.

Not the case -

The starting Offence under Wade Phillips in 1994 was -

Elway, Leonard Russell, Miller, Derek Russell, Sharpe, Evans, Zimmerman, Melander, Widell, Habib, Scrafford/Freeman

Defence

Dronett, Washington, Hasselbach, Fletcher, Croel, Mecklenburg, Alexander, Ben Smith, Crockett, Atwater, Dennis Smith.

 

The Shanahan team that won the SB in 1998

Elway, Davis, Griffith, McCaffrey, Smith, Sharpe, Zimmerman, Schlereth, Nalen, Habib, Jones. 

Smith, Traylor, Perry, Williams, Romanowski, Aldridge, Mobley, Crockett, Gordon, Braxton, Atwater.

Only 6 of the 22 starters in 1994 won the SB three years later - Shanahan did not inherit MOST of the pieces.

In my opinion Shanahan does not get half enough credit for those SB wins - he put together a very good roster and excellent coaching staff (many of whom are still coaching at a very high level over 20 years later).

 

As for the comparison with Jimmy Johnson - well Johnson was basically handed a blank cheque-book - in his first draft he had the No.1 pick - Aikman - and got 3 other players who were perennial pro-bowlers. The the Vikes handed him a kings ransom for Walker - that he used to get Emmet Smith, Russell Maryland (another No.1 pick), Darren Woodson and Kevin Smith. He was basically given all the key pieces to build a SB team - a QB, a RB, a FB, a C, two top DLmen and two key DBs. This is not to do down what Johnson achieved - but without the Walker trade the Cowboys do not win those SBs. 

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39 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

Not the case -

The starting Offence under Wade Phillips in 1994 was -

Elway, Leonard Russell, Miller, Derek Russell, Sharpe, Evans, Zimmerman, Melander, Widell, Habib, Scrafford/Freeman

Defence

Dronett, Washington, Hasselbach, Fletcher, Croel, Mecklenburg, Alexander, Ben Smith, Crockett, Atwater, Dennis Smith.

 

The Shanahan team that won the SB in 1998

Elway, Davis, Griffith, McCaffrey, Smith, Sharpe, Zimmerman, Schlereth, Nalen, Habib, Jones. 

Smith, Traylor, Perry, Williams, Romanowski, Aldridge, Mobley, Crockett, Gordon, Braxton, Atwater.

Only 6 of the 22 starters in 1994 won the SB three years later - Shanahan did not inherit MOST of the pieces.

In my opinion Shanahan does not get half enough credit for those SB wins - he put together a very good roster and excellent coaching staff (many of whom are still coaching at a very high level over 20 years later).

I stated KEY pieces, and having 3 HOFers on offense at key positions for that scheme is massive.  Nalen and Aldridge were also on the roster in ‘94.

Mike Shanahan was the perfect hire at the perfect time.  Denver doesn’t win ‘97 or ‘98 without him.  

When those key pieces left, most importantly Elway, Shanahan won 1 playoff game in 14 years.  There is no way of spinning it to make it look better.  That’s a blemish on his resume. 

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40 minutes ago, germ-x said:

When those key pieces left, most importantly Elway, Shanahan won 1 playoff game in 14 years.  There is no way of spinning it to make it look better.  That’s a blemish on his resume. 

While that is true, I believe there are only two coaches in the HOF who aren’t joined by a QB they coached - Gibbs and Parcells.

Currently active HCs who figure to get at least a look at the HOF - Belichick, Carroll, Payton - also have HOF QBs - Brady, Wilson, Brees. If Reid wins a SB he will likely get into the HOF as well and a couple decades from now will likely be joined by Maholmes. 

Mike was a better coach than both Johnson and Cowher but since both work on marquee NFL broadcasts, they got in this year so the NFL could further hype the 100 years of football thing. 

Edited by AnAngryAmerican

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Shanahan was certainly better than Cowher.  But Cowher is likable, coached the Steelers, and is now on TV. 

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2 hours ago, germ-x said:

I stated KEY pieces, and having 3 HOFers on offense at key positions for that scheme is massive.  Nalen and Aldridge were also on the roster in ‘94.

Mike Shanahan was the perfect hire at the perfect time.  Denver doesn’t win ‘97 or ‘98 without him.  

When those key pieces left, most importantly Elway, Shanahan won 1 playoff game in 14 years.  There is no way of spinning it to make it look better.  That’s a blemish on his resume. 

Shanahan made a major mistake going to the Redskins - and despite jumping into a mess, he got the Redskins to the play-offs while he was there. It lot like they have set the world on fire since he left. In the 20 years since Snyder became owner the Redskins have won 2 play-off games - in 1999 and 2005 - they have finished bottom of the NFCE 10 times in the 20 years and 3rd another 6 times. The entire franchise is almost as bad as the Browns.

Elway had been in Denver for 10 years - Sharpe for 4 years - and Zimmerman 2 years - and the Broncos didn't win the SB over that period. Aldridge had all of 1 tackle in 1994 and Nalen was a 7th round pick.

When you take out a QB of Elway's talent you are always going to have a problem filling the space. But along with Elway, Sharpe and Zimmerman - Shanahan also lost Davis and Mobley (for one season) to injury as well as Atwater and Gordon. A lot of key pieces were missing the following season.  What killed Shanahan were a series of very poor drafts from 2001 (especially in 01 and 02). He had six winning seasons in the years after the SB wins - and when he was sacked in 2008 he had put together a fairly decent roster only for McDaniels to blow it up over the following two years.

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39 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

While that is true, I believe there are only two coaches in the HOF who aren’t joined by a QB they coached - Gibbs and Parcells.

Currently active HCs who figure to get at least a look at the HOF - Belichick, Carroll, Payton - also have HOF QBs - Brady, Wilson, Brees. If Reid wins a SB he will likely get into the HOF as well and a couple decades from now will likely be joined by Maholmes. 

Mike was a better coach than both Johnson and Cowher but since both work on marquee NFL broadcasts, they got in this year so the NFL could further hype the 100 years of football thing. 

I don’t necessarily disagree.  I think George Seifert can be thrown in that mix with Shanahan, Cowher, and Johnson.

I think the coach that got the shaft was Mike Holmgren.  Holmgren is 6th all time in playoff wins behind only Belichick, Landry, Shula, Gibbs, and Noll.  He went to the SB 3x, winning 1x.  Took 2 different franchises to the SB.  Had a winning record with 2 different franchises and a .588 win percentage for his career.  Also had a coaching tree that includes Jon Gruden, Andy Reid, and Steve Mariucci.  You could also argue he’s the best QB coach in league history, who had a hand in the development of Montana, Young, Favre, and Hasselbeck.  

If any coach was getting in, it should’ve been Holmgren and the fact that he didn’t is the choice that is embarrassing. 

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10 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said:

Shanahan was certainly better than Cowher.  But Cowher is likable, coached the Steelers, and is now on TV. 

I know. Cowher's HOF election was almost as bad as Tony Dungy's, and it shows what they are really about (not surprising that Gradishar isn't in when you think about it, even though it's wrong).

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19 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

 What killed Shanahan were a series of very poor drafts from 2001 (especially in 01 and 02). He had six winning seasons in the years after the SB wins - and when he was sacked in 2008 he had put together a fairly decent roster only for McDaniels to blow it up over the following two years.

When Mike finally got away from the “win now” approach he employed from 1999-2005, and undertook a real rebuild, he wasn’t allowed to see it through as Ellis took the opportunity of Mr. B’s declining health to institute a power grab. 

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2 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

When Mike finally got away from the “win now” approach he employed from 1999-2005, and undertook a real rebuild, he wasn’t allowed to see it through as Ellis took the opportunity of Mr. B’s declining health to institute a power grab. 

I agree - and it would have been interesting to see what he could have achieved if he had been given a couple of more years. The other thing that would have been interesting and had an impact is the 2001 draft - Jack Elway was pushing big time for the Broncos to draft Drew Brees with the No.21 pick - he died a week before the draft and Shanahan took Willie Middlebrooks leaving Brees to the Chargers with the first pick of the second round. 

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2 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

When Mike finally got away from the “win now” approach he employed from 1999-2005, and undertook a real rebuild, he wasn’t allowed to see it through as Ellis took the opportunity of Mr. B’s declining health to institute a power grab. 

I’ve heard a lot of whispers of this over the years; that after Bowlen’s mental acuity began to decline, he was manipulated into firing Shanahan. Talk about a truly scummy move. 

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40 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

I agree - and it would have been interesting to see what he could have achieved if he had been given a couple of more years. The other thing that would have been interesting and had an impact is the 2001 draft - Jack Elway was pushing big time for the Broncos to draft Drew Brees with the No.21 pick - he died a week before the draft and Shanahan took Willie Middlebrooks leaving Brees to the Chargers with the first pick of the second round. 

John's dad was pushing for Brees? Never heard about that one. If that would have worked out, that would have affected two teams in 2003: The Bears and the Packers. Plummer decides to go to Chicago, and the Packers end up drafting Rex Grossman in the first round (they were high on him).

Then, in 05, A-Rod ends up going to Washington, and Jason Campbell probably goes to Cleveland in the second round.

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1 hour ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

John's dad was pushing for Brees? Never heard about that one. If that would have worked out, that would have affected two teams in 2003: The Bears and the Packers. Plummer decides to go to Chicago, and the Packers end up drafting Rex Grossman in the first round (they were high on him).

Then, in 05, A-Rod ends up going to Washington, and Jason Campbell probably goes to Cleveland in the second round.

Those what ifs are kinda fun to think about.  One different pick and the whole NFL is drastically different 

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