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Uncle Buck

How is Bill Cowher a HOF'er?

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On 1/14/2020 at 10:10 AM, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Now we’re cherry picking a specific set of stats and thinking that proves a point?

giphy.gif 

And yet, it's still better than proving nothing......mirror.gif.

Edit: But then again, a Browns fan in a thread about PIT....

Edited by JustAnotherFan

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I'd be interested to see what people thought of these 2 guys:

Dan Reeves the coach (probably Hall of Very Good)

or

Dan Reeves the player, assistant coach, and head coach

As far as I can tell he took part in 9 Super Bowls (11 total title games)

  • 2 as a player in Dallas (4 counting pre-SB title games)

In 66-67 he combined for 13 rushing TDs and 14 receiving TDs as a Christian McCaffrey type of the '60s.

  • 3 as an assistant in Dallas
  • 4 as a head coach in Denver (3) and Atlanta (1)

Just as an FYI here are his numbers compared to Gayle Sayers (WHO IS CLEARLY BETTER) from '66-'67 (Reeves only 2 years as a full time starter)

  • Sayers 2111 yards 15 rushing TDs 5.1 per rush 50 catches 573 yards 3 TDs 11.5 per catch 5.8 per touch 2684 yards from scrimmage 18 Total TDs
    • Note: Sayers missed 1 game in 1967
  • Reeves 1360 yards 13 rush TDs  3.9 per carry 80 catches 1047 yards 14 TDs 13.1 per catch 5.6 per touch  2407 yards from scrimmage 27 total TDs

Like Sayers he got mangled before medicine could handle it and he was a part time player after that. Unlike Sayers he was nowhere near a HoF player, but he was no slouch.

His most famous play was a 50 yard HB pass to give the Cowboys a 17-14 lead late in a title game you may have heard of. (Starr wins it very late with a 1 yard run)

 

I'm am not saying he should be in for sure but its interesting to consider guys like Reeves (player/assistant/coach) and Seifert (assistant/coach)

  • Seifert was DC for 6 years in SF and they were a top 10 D in all 6 years (2 SB wins) They were top 10 for 7 of his 8 years as head coach also
    • He won 2 more SBs as a head coach and his win% is insane (16th all time including his 1-15 last year)
    • He was also the DB coach from 80-82 for the 1st Super Bowl (5 total for him)
      • That '81 team was 3rd in passing yards and 5th in picks with 3 rookies and a 3rd year player as the starters (it helps that Lott was one of them for sure)
    • Again, not in for sure but an interesting conversation

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27 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

I'd be interested to see what people thought of these 2 guys:

Dan Reeves the coach (probably Hall of Very Good)

or

Dan Reeves the player, assistant coach, and head coach

As far as I can tell he took part in 9 Super Bowls (11 total title games)

  • 2 as a player in Dallas (4 counting pre-SB title games)

In 66-67 he combined for 13 rushing TDs and 14 receiving TDs as a Christian McCaffrey type of the '60s.

  • 3 as an assistant in Dallas
  • 4 as a head coach in Denver (3) and Atlanta (1)

Just as an FYI here are his numbers compared to Gayle Sayers (WHO IS CLEARLY BETTER) from '66-'67 (Reeves only 2 years as a full time starter)

  • Sayers 2111 yards 15 rushing TDs 5.1 per rush 50 catches 573 yards 3 TDs 11.5 per catch 5.8 per touch 2684 yards from scrimmage 18 Total TDs
    • Note: Sayers missed 1 game in 1967
  • Reeves 1360 yards 13 rush TDs  3.9 per carry 80 catches 1047 yards 14 TDs 13.1 per catch 5.6 per touch  2407 yards from scrimmage 27 total TDs

Like Sayers he got mangled before medicine could handle it and he was a part time player after that. Unlike Sayers he was nowhere near a HoF player, but he was no slouch.

His most famous play was a 50 yard HB pass to give the Cowboys a 17-14 lead late in a title game you may have heard of. (Starr wins it very late with a 1 yard run)

 

I'm am not saying he should be in for sure but its interesting to consider guys like Reeves (player/assistant/coach) and Seifert (assistant/coach)

  • Seifert was DC for 6 years in SF and they were a top 10 D in all 6 years (2 SB wins) They were top 10 for 7 of his 8 years as head coach also
    • He won 2 more SBs as a head coach and his win% is insane (16th all time including his 1-15 last year)
    • He was also the DB coach from 80-82 for the 1st Super Bowl (5 total for him)
      • That '81 team was 3rd in passing yards and 5th in picks with 3 rookies and a 3rd year player as the starters (it helps that Lott was one of them for sure)
    • Again, not in for sure but an interesting conversation

It might be worthwhile to compare Dan Reeves to Bill Cowher, who supposedly doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame...


Dan Reeves has 190 career wins in 23 seasons. Bill Cowher has 149 wins in 15 seasons.

Dan Reeves has a .535 career winning percentage. Bill Cowher has a .623 career winning percentage.

Dan Reeves has nine playoff appearances. Bill Cowher has 10 playoff appearances.

Dan Reeves has 11 playoff wins. Bill Cowher has 12 playoff wins.

Dan Reeves has six division championships. Bill Cowher has eight division championships.

Dan Reeves has four conference championships. Bill Cowher has two conference championships.

Dan Reeves has zero Super Bowl championships. Bill Cowher has one Super Bowl championship -- like it or not.

Dan Reeves had 10 seasons with a Hall-of-Fame QB. Bill Cowher had three seasons with an imminent Hall-of-Fame QB.


Overall, Bill Cowher accomplished more in less time and with less help at QB than Dan Reeves.

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Do you think Bill Cowher is one of the all-time greatest coaches in NFL history? I don't think he is, so under that context, I don't think he should be in the hall. There's a lot of coaches being mentioned in this thread that I think are quite a bit short of this standard (I definitely wouldn't put Mike S. or Dan Reeves in) and this is how I think of potential Hall of Famers. Are you legitimately one of the greatest in NFL history? If yes, you belong in the Hall of Fame. If not, congratulations on the nice and long career but the HoF shouldn't be a landing spot for every single person who was decent but hung around for a long time (basically I'm voting a hard and definitive no to all the Frank Gores of the world - longevity stats are worthless to me).

I'm fully aware that my standards aren't yours though, and that's where our disagreements are going to come from, but that's where I'm judging Cowher. Cowher's claim to fame is his consistency... which is nice but I don't find all that convincing. Cowher's teams have underperformed vs. inferior competition in the playoffs too often for my liking and that knocks him down a few pegs.

Edited by Hukos

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1 hour ago, Hukos said:

Do you think Bill Cowher is one of the all-time greatest coaches in NFL history? I don't think he is, so under that context, I don't think he should be in the hall. There's a lot of coaches being mentioned in this thread that I think are quite a bit short of this standard (I definitely wouldn't put Mike S. or Dan Reeves in) and this is how I think of potential Hall of Famers. Are you legitimately one of the greatest in NFL history? If yes, you belong in the Hall of Fame. If not, congratulations on the nice and long career but the HoF shouldn't be a landing spot for every single person who was decent but hung around for a long time (basically I'm voting a hard and definitive no to all the Frank Gores of the world - longevity stats are worthless to me).

I'm fully aware that my standards aren't yours though, and that's where our disagreements are going to come from, but that's where I'm judging Cowher. Cowher's claim to fame is his consistency... which is nice but I don't find all that convincing. Cowher's teams have underperformed vs. inferior competition in the playoffs too often for my liking and that knocks him down a few pegs.

Bill Cowher had the inferior QB in eight of his nine playoff losses.

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While I understand arguements for other coaches over Bill, there is no doubt he deserved to get in imo.

I'm surprised he got in right now, but all of these coaches imo deserved to get in. Bill was an excellent coach with an excellent resume. 

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12 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

His team didn't show up and blamed the refs?

which is why that superbowl was voted the worst officiated game ever?

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10 hours ago, Bassomatic said:

It might be worthwhile to compare Dan Reeves to Bill Cowher, who supposedly doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame...


Dan Reeves has 190 career wins in 23 seasons. Bill Cowher has 149 wins in 15 seasons.

Dan Reeves has a .535 career winning percentage. Bill Cowher has a .623 career winning percentage.

Dan Reeves has nine playoff appearances. Bill Cowher has 10 playoff appearances.

Dan Reeves has 11 playoff wins. Bill Cowher has 12 playoff wins.

Dan Reeves has six division championships. Bill Cowher has eight division championships.

Dan Reeves has four conference championships. Bill Cowher has two conference championships.

Dan Reeves has zero Super Bowl championships. Bill Cowher has one Super Bowl championship -- like it or not.

Dan Reeves had 10 seasons with a Hall-of-Fame QB. Bill Cowher had three seasons with an imminent Hall-of-Fame QB.


Overall, Bill Cowher accomplished more in less time and with less help at QB than Dan Reeves.

First: I think Cowher is an easy decision for the Hall of Fame (absolute yes)

Second: Go ahead and justify Jim Kelly's place in the HoF (its based ONLY on getting to 4 Super Bowls)

Reeves got to 4 as a coach and 11 overall (2 of them were pre-Superbowl Championships)

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7 hours ago, Bassomatic said:

Bill Cowher had the inferior QB in eight of his nine playoff losses.

Good thing the QB isn't the only player on the team.

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7 hours ago, Bassomatic said:

Bill Cowher had the inferior QB in eight of his nine playoff losses.

Yeah, but Cowher had the better team in some of those games. The loss to SD in the 1994 AFC Title Game comes to mind. That's a team that shouldn't even have been there, and the Steelers got beat. The 01 AFC Title Game is another example. They were better than NE that year. Also, against the Bills in the 92 AFC Divisional playoff game, he should have benched an ineffective O'Donnell at halftime for Brister, who was starting the last three weeks when Neil was hurt.

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I hate Bill Cowher as Ravens fan. I won’t begin to describe the number of reasons why.

He absolutely deserves to be in the Hall of fame.

 

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I feel the bar for HC in the HOF is so inconsistent, that makes all discussion surrounding it irrelevant and utterly broken.

From my point of view, he does deserve to be in, but so do a lot of coaches that are passed over again and again.

 

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35 minutes ago, kramxel said:

I feel the bar for HC in the HOF is so inconsistent, that makes all discussion surrounding it irrelevant and utterly broken.

From my point of view, he does deserve to be in, but so do a lot of coaches that are passed over again and again.

 

I think this is why it's important to clarify what your standards for the Hall of Fame are. For me, it's the Bill Walsh/Belichick/Lombardi/Noll/etc. guys who are clearly the absolute very best. I view Cowher as being quite a few steps below that. Some people view the hall of fame as this place where everyone who was above average eventually gets into, and if you didn't make the hall, you were trash. I personally feel like you can be extremely good at what you did, but you're still not good enough for the Hall of Fame. I've ripped on Cowher a bit in this thread, but he was a very good coach in his prime. To me though, that's not good enough to make the Hall.

A couple of examples for my own team, would be guys like John Abraham and Matt Ryan. They were never the consensus best guys at their position, thus I don't really think they deserve to be in - even though they were both very good. Despite being a fan of both of those guys, I would vote no on them. I would vote yes for someone like Julio Jones, not because of his longevity stats, but because he was a consensus elite WR for the majority of his career.

I totally recognize that my standards aren't going to be consistent with the Hall of Fame voters, but this is a thread about should as opposed to could. Your own personal value judgments are going to be what makes or breaks this argument.

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9 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Yeah, but Cowher had the better team in some of those games. The loss to SD in the 1994 AFC Title Game comes to mind. That's a team that shouldn't even have been there, and the Steelers got beat. The 01 AFC Title Game is another example. They were better than NE that year. Also, against the Bills in the 92 AFC Divisional playoff game, he should have benched an ineffective O'Donnell at halftime for Brister, who was starting the last three weeks when Neil was hurt.

The Bubby Brister would have taken us to glory angle is not an argument I see too often.

Also, the Patriots annihilated the Steelers on special teams in the 2001 AFCCG with a punt return and a blocked FG. I'm not sure that counts as being outcoached,

As a playoff QB, Slash Stewart makes Andy Dalton look good.

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23 hours ago, Bassomatic said:

Bottom line, if Bill Cowher doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, then neither do Mike Holmgren, Mike Shanahan or Tom Flores.

I really don't care one way or the other because why would I. The best stat for a HC is SB titles and he has half of what Shanahan and Flores has so I'm not buying that. Holmgren, sure, they both have one. He hasn't been better than Harbaugh, McCarthy, Tomlin, Switzer, Payton or Dungy either between regular and post season. As far as I'm concerned though let them all in, I don't care it doesn't hurt me in any way.

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