Best NBA players under 25?

[FinneasGage]

i wasn't serious with fultz, but surprised there's been zero mention of Isaac. dude is 100% the best defensive player in the league 

[seminoles1]

33 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

LaVine is tied for eighth in total steals thus far. He has eight less blocks than Simmons on the season despite being four inches shorter.

Do you also believe that Hassan Whiteside is the best defensive player in the NBA?

[DoleINGout]

8 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

I'm sorry...what? LaVine is an awful defender. And calling him a playmaker is like calling Russell Westbrook an efficient shooter.

Statistically average defender in advanced statistics, above average on-ball defender in game and trending up this season overall.

What is your definition of a playmaker? The backlash to LaVine here is an overreaction to me thinking he is a better player than Ben Simmons. It's amazing how defensive people are of a player who hasn't improved much since high school.

Simmons, the guy who is second in the NBA in turnover percentage. The guy who disappears in the playoffs because he doesn't shoot. The guy who has the second lowest free throw percentage ahead of only Steven Adams. And Simmons, the guy who has the seventh most personal fouls in the NBA despite having a usage rate of 20%, the same or worse than Jeff Teague, Jeremy Lamb, and Patty Mills. Simmons is a shot averse point guard with a huge frame who people overrated because he is athletic.

[DoleINGout]

17 minutes ago, FinneasGage said:

i wasn't serious with fultz, but surprised there's been zero mention of Isaac. dude is 100% the best defensive player in the league 

Good call.

[DoleINGout]

32 minutes ago, kyle21121 said:

LaVine *was* a very poor *effort* defender 

 

[Mox]

23 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

Statistically average defender in advanced statistics, above average on-ball defender in game and trending up this season overall.

What is your definition of a playmaker? The backlash to LaVine here is an overreaction to me thinking he is a better player than Ben Simmons. It's amazing how defensive people are of a player who hasn't improved much since high school.

Simmons, the guy who is second in the NBA in turnover percentage. The guy who disappears in the playoffs because he doesn't shoot. The guy who has the second lowest free throw percentage ahead of only Steven Adams. And Simmons, the guy who has the seventh most personal fouls in the NBA despite having a usage rate of 20%, the same or worse than Jeff Teague, Jeremy Lamb, and Patty Mills. Simmons is a shot averse point guard with a huge frame who people overrated because he is athletic.

I didn't even see your post. I don't care about your opinion on him vs Ben Simmons. Zach LaVine isn't that good of a basketball player. He's a more athletic Kyrie Irving with less skill and ego issues. Great flash player, not so great substance player. 

[DoleINGout]

1 minute ago, Bullet Club said:

I didn't even see your post. I don't care about your opinion on him vs Ben Simmons. Zach LaVine isn't that good of a basketball player. He's a more athletic Kyrie Irving with less skill and ego issues. Great flash player, not so great substance player. 

"Last season LaVine was one of only ten players to average at least 23 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, making him stand out as an elite player in the company of MVPs and All-Stars. LaVine’s personal triumphs, however, were overshadowed by the Bulls abysmal 22-60 record last season."

How is LaVine not a good basketball player.

[DoleINGout]

4 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I don't care about your opinion on him vs Ben Simmons.

How do you feel about this:

29 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

Simmons, the guy who is second in the NBA in turnover percentage. The guy who disappears in the playoffs because he doesn't shoot. The guy who has the second lowest free throw percentage ahead of only Steven Adams. And Simmons, the guy who has the seventh most personal fouls in the NBA despite having a usage rate of 20%, the same or worse than Jeff Teague, Jeremy Lamb, and Patty Mills. Simmons is a shot averse point guard with a huge frame who people overrated because he is athletic.

 

[Mox]

32 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

"Last season LaVine was one of only ten players to average at least 23 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, making him stand out as an elite player in the company of MVPs and All-Stars. LaVine’s personal triumphs, however, were overshadowed by the Bulls abysmal 22-60 record last season."

How is LaVine not a good basketball player.

Because his numbers don't translate to winning ala Kyrie Irving. He's a super talented scorer who disrupts the flow of the offense and doesn't create well for others.

Example:

Minnesota w/Zach LaVine 60-146 (29.1%)

Minnesota w/o Zach LaVine 16-24 (40.0%)

Chicago w/ Zach LaVine 40-89 (31.0%)

Chicago w/o Zach LaVine 24-53 (31.2%)

Both teams he's played on have been as good or better without him.

30 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

How do you feel about this:

 

I don't care for Ben Simmons. He ruined his immense potential with his refusal to shoot/adapt his game and as far as I'm concerned he's just an extremely talented underachiever. He's still good but nowhere near as good as he should be.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Bullet Club

[DoleINGout]

50 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Because his numbers don't translate to winning ala Kyrie Irving. He's a super talented scorer who disrupts the flow of the offense and doesn't create well for others.

Example:

Minnesota w/Zach LaVine 60-146 (29.1%)

Minnesota w/o Zach LaVine 16-24 (40.0%)

Chicago w/ Zach LaVine 40-89 (31.0%)

Chicago w/o Zach LaVine 24-53 (31.2%)

Both teams he's played on have been as good or better without him.

I don't care for Ben Simmons. He ruined his immense potential with his refusal to shoot/adapt his game and as far as I'm concerned he's just an extremely talented underachiever. He's still good but nowhere near as good as he should be.

Even though you boiled things down way too simply to merely team W/L record, it still so obvious to point out that Minnesota Zach LaVine is not the more skill and refined 2020 Zach LaVine.

As far as saying LaVine doesn't create for others, "a la Kyrie", I don't think it's a perfect comparison. For the simple fact that LaVine thrives in transition, cutting, and moving without the ball as much as he does in handling the ball to setup a scoring play for himself or a teammate. They also play different positions; LaVine happens to handle the ball a lot like a point guard, but doesn't have to as a shooting guard.

I agree with your take on Simmons.

[the lone star]

Luka #1 on this list for sure.

[resilient part 2]

13 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

Luka Dončić (20)

Karl-Anthony Towns (24)

Ja Morant (20)

Devin Booker (23)

Trae Young (21)

Nikola Jokić (24)*

Donovan Mitchell (23)

Jayson Tatum (21)

Deandre Ayton (21)

Brandon Ingram (22)

Jamal Murray (22)

Zach LaVine (24)

Domantas Sabonis (23)

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (21)

Kevin Huerter (21)

Ben Simmons (23)

Jaylon Brown (23)

Markelle Fultz (21)

Jaren Jackson Jr. (20)

Myles Turner (23)

My TOP 15 with reasons.

1A - KAT - better player/talent

1B - Jokic -makes teammates better therefor tie.

3 - Luka Doncic - best passer, but big numbers sometimes mislead and must show equal ability in the playoffs especially shooting.not strong on defense

4 - Jayson Tatum - while streaky as a mother F er his offensive repertoire is Kobe like (for good and bad) BUT is an elite defender already. and Defense matters. best 2 way player easily.

5A - Booker hard to know where he should be until his team becomes more consistent.

5B - Mitchell makes a solid impact to winning. Like Tatum, a bit too streaky offensively

7 - Ayton - based on a smaller sample size but should be around here.

8 - B Ingram - streaky as well, but his potential is starting to show. Plus I like athletic wings .

9 - J Murray - complete guard but must deliver better in the clutch, can he?

10 - Jaylen  Brown - sometimes shows such great promise then he gets lost. Problems come from sharing the ball with 4-5 other ball dominant players. BUT again defense matters more with me, Solid 2 way player.

11 Ben Simmons - the biggest enigma maybe ever. His positives are great his weaknesses are equal. Playoffs matter not regular season. If/when he can raise hisn play then, we can revisit this list.

12 - Ja Morant - even this is high for him because too small a sample size BUT the signs are very promising.

13 - Trae Young - amazing that such a skinny player can produce so well. But as I stated already, I love defenders and he just too bad at it.

14 - Domantas Sabonis (23) like his versatility inside and out. 

15 - Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (21)- multi-positional offensive and defensive player. 

 

[Mox]

5 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

Even though you boiled things down way too simply to merely team W/L record, it still so obvious to point out that Minnesota Zach LaVine is not the more skill and refined 2020 Zach LaVine.

As far as saying LaVine doesn't create for others, "a la Kyrie", I don't think it's a perfect comparison. For the simple fact that LaVine thrives in transition, cutting, and moving without the ball as much as he does in handling the ball to setup a scoring play for himself or a teammate. They also play different positions; LaVine happens to handle the ball a lot like a point guard, but doesn't have to as a shooting guard.

I agree with your take on Simmons.

Chicago still doesn't see any drop off without him though. Zach's playstyle isn't that similar to Kyrie. That's not what I was trying to suggest. I mean they are similar because they are both talented scorers who tend to make little to no difference in team performance because they don't make their teammates better.

[DoleINGout]

11 hours ago, Bullet Club said:

Chicago still doesn't see any drop off without him though. Zach's playstyle isn't that similar to Kyrie. That's not what I was trying to suggest. I mean they are similar because they are both talented scorers who tend to make little to no difference in team performance because they don't make their teammates better.

Unless you're LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or Wilt Chamberlain, one player is not going alter wins and losses on a dreadful team. At least with Kyrie we saw how the Celtics performed without him and a lot of quality players. LaVine has never been in any situation where the Bulls were a good team. And 2020 has been LaVine's best season to date.

[Mox]

Just now, DoleINGout said:

Unless you're LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or Wilt Chamberlain, one player is not going alter wins and losses on a dreadful team. At least with Kyrie we saw how the Celtics performed without him and a lot of quality players. LaVine has never been in any situation where the Bulls were a good team. And 2020 has been LaVine's best season to date.

I don't agree. Great players make a difference. Trae Young is on the worst team in the NBA and his offensive impact is massive as evidenced by their ORTG with vs. without him. Same with Karl Anthony Towns. The Wizards went 5-28 without John Wall and 24-25 with him in his third year. DeAndre Ayton has a noticeable impact on the Suns. Those are/were all young guys whose impact was felt early on.

With Zach there is multiple years of evidence that there is no difference or a better outcome whenever he sits. This may be his best season but he's still largely the same player. He's an iso scorer who doesn't make a team any better. His On/Off numbers are middle of the road on his own team. As far as I'm concerned there is no difference between the Cavs, Celtics and Nets being as good or better without Kyrie than the Wolves and Bulls being as good or better without LaVine.