NYRaider Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 @resilient part 2 Spida > Tatum and it’s not even that close tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 34 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: Great players make a difference. LaVine is merely a very good player, but straddled with an awful team every year on his back is too much to overcome in terms of wins and losses. I agree, great players make a difference, however only so much with the lack of talent and organizational consistency or competence around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 36 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: Trae Young is on the worst team in the NBA and his offensive impact is massive as evidenced by their ORTG with vs. without him. Same with Karl Anthony Towns. The Wizards went 5-28 without John Wall and 24-25 with him in his third year. DeAndre Ayton has a noticeable impact on the Suns. Those are/were all young guys whose impact was felt early on. 1. Trae Young is still on the worst team in terms of W's/L's this season. 2. Karl-Anthony Towns is arguably the best player under 25 in the NBA, and that team is still out of playoff contention. KAT of course has a greater impact than LaVine. 3. The Suns were winning at a .500 level without Ayton this year and have a team that is far beyond anything LaVine has been apart of. 4. John Wall was better then than LaVine is currently. 5. You brought up Trae Young's offensive stats as it relates to the Hawks success. The Hawks have the least amount of wins in the league thus far through nearly 50 games, at a total of nine. LaVine has an OWS of 1.6. That is the same as Jamal Murray and better than Kyrie Irving, Pascal Siakam, Jayson Tatum, Myles Turner, Russell Westbrook, Andre Drummond, D'Angelo Russell, John Collins, Jonathan Issac, Deandre Ayton, and Aaron Gordon ...to name a few notable players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: 1. Trae Young is still on the worst team in terms of W's/L's this season. 2. Karl-Anthony Towns is arguably the best player under 25 in the NBA, and that team is still out of playoff contention. KAT of course has a greater impact than LaVine. 3. The Suns were winning at a .500 level without Ayton this year and have a team that is far beyond anything LaVine has been apart of. 4. John Wall was better then than LaVine is currently. 5. You brought up Trae Young's offensive stats as it relates to the Hawks success. The Hawks have the least amount of wins in the league thus far through nearly 50 games, at a total of nine. LaVine has an OWS of 1.6. That is the same as Jamal Murray and better than Kyrie Irving, Pascal Siakam, Jayson Tatum, Myles Turner, Russell Westbrook, Andre Drummond, D'Angelo Russell, John Collins, Jonathan Issac, Deandre Ayton, and Aaron Gordon ...to name a few notable players. The difference between the Hawks offense with Trae Young (108.2 ORTG) vs. without (94.2 ORTG) is larger than the gap between the best team (115.9) in the NBA vs the worst (102.7). He's clearly making a huge difference. The same can't be said for Zach. Towns isn't LeBron, Kareem or Wilt though. The Suns last year with Ayton 17-54 (23.9%).The Suns last year without Ayton 2-9 (18.2%). The Suns this year with Ayton 6-5 (54.6%). The Suns this year without Ayton 11-19 (36.7%). Yes, he was but that's not saying much because LaVine isn't that good. OWS are related to total amount of wins. The Hawks have by far the worst NBA roster this season. As evidenced by the numbers I provided above. It's hard to get wins with the worst roster in basketball thus far (due to injuries). By ORPM (an actual measure of offensive impact), Trae Young is the #1 PG in the NBA. You don't want to get started on Zach vs Trae. Zach has literally no argument for being in the same stratosphere. Edited January 17, 2020 by Bullet Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, NYRaider said: @resilient part 2 Spida > Tatum and it’s not even that close tbh. If you like your boy better than fine that's not an argument but when posters like yourself say things aren't even close that alone turns me off because that if anything is easily Up For Debate Let me put it to you another way a potentially great Wing is harder to come by than a potentially great point guard in my opinion so that alone I can make the argument that isn't even close in my favor. Edited January 17, 2020 by resilient part 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, resilient part 2 said: If you like your boy better than fine that's not an argument but when posters like yourself say things aren't even close that alone turns me off because that if anything is easily Up For Debate Let me put it to you another way a potentially great Wing is harder to come by than a potentially great point guard in my opinion so that alone I can make the argument that isn't even close in my favor. Mitchell is in the MVP discussion this season according to NBA.com and Hoopshype, Tatum isn't even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Bullet Club said: You don't want to get started on Zach vs Trae. Zach has literally no argument for being in the same stratosphere. There never was in an argument of LaVine versus Young though... 🤨 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 LaVine is the epitome of empty stats 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) LaVine is one of the best players under the age of 25. He is not anywhere near the best, like KAT or Young or Year 3 John Wall or Ayton, but nobody is arguing that. The point is to show that despite good production and improvement year-to-year, a franchise as consistently subpar as the Bulls is not fixable by just one person. It's foolish to claim that someone isn't that good at something just because they're environment is wrought with dysfunction. Edited January 17, 2020 by DoleINGout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMossIsBoss Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Lavine's style is not conductive to winning basketball, that's why he gets the "empty stats" label whereas Booker and KAT, who lose just as much it would seem, are not considered to be empty stat guys. At least not by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, NYRaider said: Mitchell is in the MVP discussion this season according to NBA.com and Hoopshype, Tatum isn't even close. Dude Isaiah Thomas was one time top 5 in MVP discussion and not even a top 50 player so please stop it. Tatum has a ton of other stars..impossible to even become one.. Edited January 18, 2020 by resilient part 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 21 hours ago, Bullet Club said: He's an iso scorer who doesn't make a team any better. Kyrie is an iso scorer and half court guy whereas LaVine does more than that. I think Kyrie brings a team down because of his attitude off court as much as his play style. Not sure how a player as good as LaVine doesn't make a team "any better". The examples you gave of KAT, John Wall, and Ayton are all first overall picks who went to worse situations where there was a lot more immediate change accompanying them top to bottom in those franchises at the time of their drafting. On top of all that, since it seems to need reiterating, those first overall pick players are more talented than LaVine and clearly going to have a more substantial impact as they are better and more valuable overall. As far as the whole Trae Young debate, you brought him up, not me. Then you go on to say that I do not want to get into a comparison between LaVine and Young? Well, you're sort of right, but I never tried to in the first place. Since we are on the topic however, both Young and LaVine have relatively high turnover rates. In fact I believe Young has the most turnovers of anyone in the NBA on a per game basis. Both play for stagnant franchises. Both can be taken advantage of defensively. Young is shorter and probably less athletic but more skilled overall than LaVine and comes with a higher pedigree also. Both make their teams better as they are two of the best players under the age of 25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 19 hours ago, beekay414 said: LaVine is the epitome of empty stats 17 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said: Lavine's style is not conductive to winning basketball, that's why he gets the "empty stats" label whereas Booker and KAT, who lose just as much it would seem, are not considered to be empty stat guys. At least not by me. It's not a style as much as it is his position/role is to score. The effort and consistency defensively could be better of course, but a shooting guard is generally going to impact the wins and losses less than a point guard unless he is all-time great like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. Even then, one guy isn't going to win by himself especially when there is constant dysfunction around the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirill Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I'm taking Ja Morant over anyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 1:39 PM, Bullet Club said: The difference between the Hawks offense with Trae Young (108.2 ORTG) vs. without (94.2 ORTG) is larger than the gap between the best team (115.9) in the NBA vs the worst (102.7). He's clearly making a huge difference. The same can't be said for Zach. "Jim Boylen said he likes that they’ve established a style of play at both ends of the floor. I’m sorry, but the Bulls' offensive rating of 104.7 currently ranks 28th in the league and falls to 96.2 when Zach LaVine is off the court" Trae Young is a point guard so of course he affects the offense differently than a shooting guard, even one who handles as well and as often as LaVine. The Bulls new offensive scheme this year is to have everyone handle the ball often anyways, and it's not playing to everyones strengths very well. https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/pecking-order-bulls-pre-nba-trade-deadline-do-list On 1/17/2020 at 1:39 PM, Bullet Club said: The Suns last year with Ayton 17-54 (23.9%).The Suns last year without Ayton 2-9 (18.2%). The Suns this year with Ayton 6-5 (54.6%). The Suns this year without Ayton 11-19 (36.7%). For a first overall pick, those team records in Ayton's rookie year aren't very significant in justifying whatever counterargument you tried to make here. This season the Suns have become a much better team. After the 25-game suspension and before Aron Baynes was injured, the Suns record without Ayton was actually 7-9, (and that's with Rubio + Booker missing a combined seven of those games). So Ayton, one of the best players under the age of 25, improves the Suns as you'd expect, but not dramatically so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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