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Steelers hinting about deal with Dupree??

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6 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I agree to a point, as I was one of Dupree's biggest critics and I am not a fan of paying him huge money either.  However, I do think he is a solid complimentary OLB next to Watt and did play very well in 2019.   

Bottom line...wouldnt mind keeping him and would pay a little more than I would last year, but this suggestion of him getting $16m a year makes me ******* sick.  Im not even sold on him being worth $10m a year.

Yeah $16 million is hard to swallow.  Imagine what Watt will command.  I think $10 million is a pipe dream tho.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/bud-dupree-16746/market-value/

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16 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Yeah $16 million is hard to swallow.  Imagine what Watt will command.  I think $10 million is a pipe dream tho.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/bud-dupree-16746/market-value/

By no means am I saying we could keep him for that...just that I am barely comfortable paying him that...much less $16m.  

Tough choices ahead.

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2 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I agree to a point, as I was one of Dupree's biggest critics and I am not a fan of paying him huge money either.  However, I do think he is a solid complimentary OLB next to Watt and did play very well in 2019.   

Bottom line...wouldnt mind keeping him and would pay a little more than I would last year, but this suggestion of him getting $16m a year makes me ******* sick.  Im not even sold on him being worth $10m a year.

Yea.  I supported him when he wasn't the greatest, but now that he had a good year the opinion seemed to swing the other way when he really wasn't a different player.  So the idea of people being so open to paying him, but not Hargrave who dramatically improved year to year is amazing to me.

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Hargraves market value is 14M  You want to pay that for 60% snaps?  Or 45% snaps.  Hargrave is a good as gone.  The open market will offer him the price for a 3 tech and the Steelers can only afford a Nt that is on the field 50% of the time.

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10 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I believe my stance is quite clear by now.

It is, but regardless of Dupree signing Hargrave is not a smart decision. 

I don’t know that anyone is trying to argue that Dupree is a better talent than Hargrave. But there is more to the decision than just pass rush win percentage. Bud was really good against the run, was a solid complimentary pass rusher (top 10 in sacks created with 12, just 2 behind Watt) and plays a position that’s a nightmare without him on our current roster.  

My thought process with Bud is identical to what it was last year. If you can afford him, pay him for the year and use your resources elsewhere on other positions of need. His OLB position would probably do us a world of good if it was on a rookie scale in the next few years while we pay Watt and Fitzpatrick top money and look for CB help to come. Take one more year, and say thanks for the memories. 

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I just disagree.  They used Hargrave much more this year the way he should be getting used.  If we let Hargrave walk because we wanted to pay Dupree thinking he's more impactful, we'll regret it by year two.  And I'm bookmarking this if that signing happens.

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2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

They used Hargrave much more this year the way he should be getting used

How much does that get impacted by a guy making more money and who is more talented coming back? Thats the problem with Hargrave. There are not enough ways to make all three guys as useful at that pay. I fully agree with your statement, but that also goes away to some extent. 

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

If we let Hargrave walk because we wanted to pay Dupree thinking he's more impactful, we'll regret it by year two.

Bold: What I am saying is being more impactful/talented doesnt need to have anything to do with it. Situation dictates that OLB is far more important to us than our DL depth as our roster currently stands.

Underlined: I dont want year 2. 

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Actually, here is a questions I will pose:

Anyone cool with Cam Heyward walking after 2020? Cause that's the only way we keep Hargrave. 

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1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

How much does that get impacted by a guy making more money and who is more talented coming back? Thats the problem with Hargrave. There are not enough ways to make all three guys as useful at that pay. I fully agree with your statement, but that also goes away to some extent. 

There is absolutely a way to make them useful.  The question is can the coaching staff.  Play a 3-3, go more base package 3-4, play them in rotation.  What's so bad about depth and ability to rotate and keep guys fresh in game and in season?

Quote

Bold: What I am saying is being more impactful/talented doesnt need to have anything to do with it. Situation dictates that OLB is far more important to us than our DL depth as our roster currently stands.

Underlined: I dont want year 2. 

Why is OLB far more important?  Because of the FO failure to have proper depth?  I would say given Tuitt and Heywards health issues (Tuitt has 1 season of full availability) it's prudent to have a guy with positional flexibility like Hargrave.

Also saw the other question you posted....why is that the case?  Baron, Chickillo and Haden all come off the books.  Lets say Ben and Pouncey retire, that's another $43mil opened up.  The 2020 year is the year we have to be careful with.  2021 has $119mil in committed contracts, 2022 has $85mil.  Now I know that changes with this offseason, but unless we make big mistakes with the cap this year we should be fine in 2021 offseason.  

I think what's important this year is for the FO to retain the guy they think is the one, add some fringe parts, get Ben back healthy.  I think the worries about the cap is much more overblown by fans than it needs to be.  Sure we're looking at a hole at TE, but how often do we lean on one that much?  FS was about to be a big hole and we plugged it without spending.  ILB, CB, OL are all likely to be retained without needing to add.  Same with WR.  Not that they have ever been accused of this, but if they really wanted to, they could be very creative, and just create new deals for Haden and Heyward where they add extra years and convert current money into bonus for the new deal.  Move out one of Williams or Barron.  

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46 minutes ago, warfelg said:

What's so bad about depth and ability to rotate and keep guys fresh in game and in season?

Depth is great, costly depth is not. Its the NFL. Depth does not exist for long thanks to the salary cap and free agency. 1/4 of our cap dedicated to 3 guys to play the majority of two spots is not cost effective. Tuitt and Heyward are the more talented dudes, I love Hargrave -- but that's just true.

Tyson Alualu had a terrific season and will fill his same role. Buggs was decent in his limited snaps, but you can expect some level of growth. Save $10-12M and get a Steve McClendon (if cut)/Michael Pierce role player and there wouldnt be huge falloff. There are better ways to spend $14M than a 45%er with adequate replacements of his snaps available and there's a decently long list of FA vets that could fill that void for a year. I'm not saying they are as good, but they fill the role at a far greater cost considering the way we play defense. 

56 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Why is OLB far more important?  Because of the FO failure to have proper depth?  I would say given Tuitt and Heywards health issues (Tuitt has 1 season of full availability) it's prudent to have a guy with positional flexibility like Hargrave.

Not saying OLB - the position - is more important but....

Watt, ????, Ola, Skipper is <<<<<<<<<<<<< Heyward, Tuitt, Alualu, Buggs, McCullers. The Bold helps embody my feeling here. We continually find decent DL depth guys and coach lower asset guys up, we haven't done it at OLB. I trust us far more to find 3rd wheel replacement at DT. 

I get Tuitts injury history, but he has only played less than 14 games twice, the other time was 12 games. Heyward doesnt have that history - Only has 1 year in which he didnt play the full available games (2017 he sat week 17).

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Also saw the other question you posted....why is that the case?  Baron, Chickillo and Haden all come off the books.  Lets say Ben and Pouncey retire, that's another $43mil opened up.  The 2020 year is the year we have to be careful with.  2021 has $119mil in committed contracts, 2022 has $85mil.  Now I know that changes with this offseason, but unless we make big mistakes with the cap this year we should be fine in 2021 offseason.  

Because when they come off....more come on. Ben and Pouncey are probably not retiring after next season - and you cannot just assume it. Watt is looking $25M+ right in the face.  Our CB future worries me, and I think we will have to buy there again. Fitzpatrick will be a top safety, probably $16M per plus. JuJu will have a hefty raise, hopefully in the second tier range. We are going to need to turn over our O-Line, which in FA is costly. If we go the FA route for a QB place holder, it could be $20M. Its the only reason I am against Hargrave -- 1/4 the cap space on three players to play 2 spots. Its too much. The bold is where I lay with that. We will need to fill other gaps. We will need to retain other players and $14M is a lot of flexibility for all around depth rather than just 1 position. 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I think the worries about the cap is much more overblown by fans than it needs to be.

I am in  complete agreement with you here, brother. I dont think its near as dire as people seem to think it is, but that still doesnt mean I want to pay top market dollars on a luxury of a rotation. I would love to have Hargrave back, but to me that depth isnt worth paying that price for. 

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6 hours ago, jebrick said:

Hargraves market value is 14M  You want to pay that for 60% snaps?  Or 45% snaps.  Hargrave is a good as gone.  The open market will offer him the price for a 3 tech and the Steelers can only afford a Nt that is on the field 50% of the time.

no way I would pay Hargrave $14M for a part time role and if Tuitt returns especially considering Tuitt was the best defender on this team before Minkah arrived and everything changed from there. Time to move on there most likely. 

 

4 hours ago, warfelg said:

I just disagree.  They used Hargrave much more this year the way he should be getting used.  If we let Hargrave walk because we wanted to pay Dupree thinking he's more impactful, we'll regret it by year two.  And I'm bookmarking this if that signing happens.

good point, but maybe let both walk.   Tuitt returns and let Ola and Skipper have their chance. Maybe get Ngakoue or AJ Green

would you consider Xavier Rhodes for a discount as a DB to cover TE's? Many say he is washed up, but maybe a change in scenery and a different role would work.  

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@Dcash4

Heres the thing to me:  If I had to pay one it would be Hargraves.  Even at 50-60% of the snaps he had just as big if not bigger impact than Dupree.  I feel with that justification you might be able to get him to take a slight discount.

That said:

I wouldn't resign either.  As you said in your post, there are two much more important guys to resign coming up: Watt and Fitzpatrick.  Neither is walking out that door on me.  So I look at this year as working the edges (like you agreed the cap situation isn't all that bad, especially if you let Dupree and Hargraves walk), draft really solid.  I think too that if you let those two walk you are getting likely a 3rd and 4th round compensatory pick, which would be huge in 2021 draft to have 6 picks in the first 4 rounds.

Edit:

Playing around on spotrac's cap operator, if we cut Barron, McDonald, Foster, Holton, Lynch, and Switzer; restructure Nelson and DeCastro, we got $24mil in cap space.  At that point I look to shop the edges much better: 

Nick Vannett: 3 year $6mil, $2.5mil guaranteed

Quinton Spain (OG): 3 year $12mil, $4.5mil guaranteed

Bruce Irving (OLB): 2 year $10mil, $4mil guaranteed

Vic Beasley (OLB): 3 year $12mil, $3.75mil guaranteed

Timmy Jernnigan (NT): 4 year $12.5mil, $5mil guaranteed.

If my math is right, you could be talking about $17mil in space in FA signings, and I think what I managed to do there was give some wiggle room (especially at OLB) to not have to be super aggressive going into the draft of needs.

RD 2 - Cole Kmet TE ND

RD 3 - Akeem Davis-Gaither ILB/OLB Appalachian State

RD 4 - Trystan Colon-Castillo OG Missouri

RD 4 - Trevon Hill EDGE Miami

RD 6 - James Proche WR SMU

RD 7 - Bryce Perkins QB UVA

 

Edited by warfelg

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People keep saying Dupree OR Hargrave, but I agree with @warfelg, I dont think we should overpay either.   

Dont get me wrong...I fully expect one of them to be retained...but I would rather lose both than overpay either.  Would it hurt?  Yes, but I dont personally believe either are irreplaceable.  Hargraves versatility is the biggest loss.

I trust Hargrave more with a big contract, but does he deserve that much with his limited snaps?

We currently have far more money invested in the DLine, which is why I think the front office might lean towards Dupree.

 

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Good points @warfelg and @FourThreeMafia

I've been a Dupree supporter but I agree we shouldn't back up the Brinks truck to him. I mean, Watt and Minkah are much more impactful and Dupree should not be retained if it gets in the way of bringing back either of them.

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