2020 Titans Off-Season

[TitanRedd]

9 minutes ago, -Hope- said:

no thanks. his defense always gets worse year by year wherever he goes.

You do realize every coordinator have their ups & downs including HC’s it’s no guarantee & all the hot coordinators get HC offers or are still locked in on current deals, that being said who else is better. I believe he’s coordinated 3 Super Bowls & won 2  🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️

[SerenityNow]

4 hours ago, ragevsuall17 said:

I posted this in the JRob thread before I saw this one pop up... 

 

I'm starting to think let Ryan go if it means picking up a top pass rusher. Conklin may price himself out too... Those are 2 guys we'd most love to have back who we may not be able to bring back. 

The only certainties are Mariota is gone, as is Woodyard. Dion, Wake, and Succop I'd say are 99% gone as they try to find money for some of the FAs. Walker is probably gone too? Maybe not but it seems he may be. Casey is a Longshot to be cut... But that's a lot of money we could save. 

Everything else is up in the air. Henry, RT, Ryan, Conklin are the priorities, probably in that order. 

Bates, Correa, Firkser, Kelley, Pruitt, Sharpe, Sims are all role players that we'd like to have back if they come affordable. 

I agree. I'm starting to get on board with the idea of letting Logan walk if it means we have the money to get a pass rusher like Clowney in here. I think we need to continue to build the defense through the draft. I think ultimately we'll be resigning Adoree when his contract is up, so we'll probably need to look into the draft for that next slot CB, because Logan is going to get a big contract, and I don't think we can afford to have all that money tied into the secondary even with as good as he has been for us. I have faith in JRob's ability to find us a player that can fill that role in the draft. Our LBs are in good hands, our DL is in good hands for the most part though we should probably start thinking about life after Casey and trying to find another interior pass rusher. The only glaring missing piece of our defense is another dominant pass rusher opposite Landry, and there's a lot of good pass rusher options in FA this year, so it should be interesting.

[Titansfan_13]

16 minutes ago, TitanRedd said:

You do realize every coordinator have their ups & downs including HC’s it’s no guarantee & all the hot coordinators get HC offers or are still locked in on current deals, that being said who else is better. I believe he’s coordinated 3 Super Bowls & won 2  🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️

Phillips has been around for long enough that this a thing with him and not just some fluke. It's happened everywhere he's been lol

That being said, the 1st year is usually a really really good one, like Super Bowl good, and I think that would be worth it.

[ttitansfan4life]

 

[TitanSlim]

I think @TitanRedd had said something about it but I wished we signed a passing game coordinator.

On a similar note, I highly doubt we would do it or that he'd eveh accept it but I'd offer Jim Caldwell an offensive advisor/assistant HC role. Similar to what Gary Kubiak had for the Vikings this past season. Not only would it be beneficial for next season, but we would have Art Smith's potential replacement if he's hired away after another nice year.

[TitanRedd]

1 hour ago, TitanSlim said:

I think @TitanRedd had said something about it but I wished we signed a passing game coordinator.

On a similar note, I highly doubt we would do it or that he'd eveh accept it but I'd offer Jim Caldwell an offensive advisor/assistant HC role. Similar to what Gary Kubiak had for the Vikings this past season. Not only would it be beneficial for next season, but we would have Art Smith's potential replacement if he's hired away after another nice year.

I forgot about Jim Caldwell 🗣Genius 

[TitanLegend]

Since these encompass both Tannehill and Henry instead of one or the other, will just toss this here.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-derrick-henry-ryan-tannehill-titans-future-2020

 

[TitanSS]

@TitanLegend I don't know if putting numbers behind it will help most fans with Henry. Most fans are not approaching it as "What is best" and looking for information to form their decision.

Instead, they have already decided their fan favorite is the best and are trying to find any information that supports what they want. Affirmation over information.

If Henry would accept a contract in their low range, 10m, I could get behind that a lot easier than anything like Zeke's contract. He is a good back, but I don't like paying RBs even that much.

For Tannehill, I was expecting a 4 year deal at 27.5m/yr just based on Jimmy G, so 27m sounds about right.

Edited January 21, 2020 by TitanSS

[titans0021]

I’m here for the arguments for why we should let Henry walk. I’m certainly not excited to pay him $15 million per year and think there’s probably a legitimate argument to be made for running the offense through Tannehill, AJ, CD, Hump and Jonnu. I also think it’s important to recognize that we do not have an analytical based coaching staff or FO and there’s no chance we let Henry walk.

With that said, I’m not quite sure I’m there yet with football analytics. The complete disregard for skill position players really only works with elite QB play and/or design and scheme (and even that only carries you so far, see 2019 Rams). If running backs are completely meaningless, which is certainly the argument if Henry is worth .1 WAR as the league leader in yards and yards after contact, and receivers are shiny hood ornaments (as I’ve been told 100 times), I wish you the best of luck in building a consistently competent offense without a generational QB or a generational coach, which, you know, are pretty hard to find.

[KingTitan]

7 minutes ago, TitanSS said:

@TitanLegend I don't know if putting numbers behind it will help most fans with Henry. Most fans are not approaching it as "What is best" and looking for information to form their decision.

Instead, they have already decided their fan favorite is the best and are trying to find any information that supports what they want. Affirmation over information.

If Henry would accept a contract in their low range, 10m, I could get behind that a lot easier than anything like Zeke's contract. He is a good back, but I don't like paying RBs even that much.

For Tannehill, I was expecting a 4 year deal at 27.5m/yr just based on Jimmy G, so 27m sounds about right.

Just seems like a step backwards to get rid of a guy that was the main reason for our run. 

You and TL are some of the more vocal in not bringing back Henry and say it is best for the team.  But is it really? or is just best for the cap?
Not using money as the judging factor, looking at talent alone, are you both saying it is best for the Titans to be without Henry?

I keep asking are we ok with using a premium pick on a RB? 
Want to spend money on Brieda and Gus Edwards? (Both restricted FA's). Because neither has proved to be able to carry a workload that this offense is likely going to require from it's back. 
Kenyan Drake?  He won't be cheap either. 
Are you all saying that Tannehill is successful absent a ground game led by Henry? We can lean on him by himself? 

Yes team vibe, personality plays a part but let's not act like he wasn't dominate either. 
While you point to that as a negative, it could be equally as a negative to look at analytical numbers and money to decide the make up of a team. 

I feel you I really do.

But fa real tho..lol
This offense is going to need an presence at RB. Looking at the current FA market of Unrestricted guys outside of Henry:
Melvin Gordon
Carlos Hyde
Kenyan Drake
Frank Gore
Jordan Howard
Lesean McCoy

and a host of lesser known blah guys. 

Unless Arthur Smith/Vrabel changes their philosophy and we start airing it out, we need a run heavy approach. None of those guys seem capable of doing so. 
And other route is a pick in the top 3 rounds, if we want to ensure ourselves with the best chance to get a productive back. 
I'd rather use those picks to get edge, DL and CB help. 

[KingTitan]

4 minutes ago, titans0021 said:

I’m here for the arguments for why we should let Henry walk. I’m certainly not excited to pay him $15 million per year and think there’s probably a legitimate argument to be made for running the offense through Tannehill, AJ, CD, Hump and Jonnu. I also think it’s important to recognize that we do not have an analytical based coaching staff or FO and there’s no chance we let Henry walk.

With that said, I’m not quite sure I’m there yet with football analytics. The complete disregard for skill position players really only works with elite QB play and/or design and scheme (and even that only carries you so far, see 2019 Rams). If running backs are completely meaningless, which is certainly the argument if Henry is worth .1 WAR as the league leader in yards and yards after contact, and receivers are shiny hood ornaments (as I’ve been told 100 times), I wish you the best of luck in building a consistently competent offense without a generational QB or a generational coach, which, you know, are pretty hard to find.

You have Mahomes, yes go get Damian Williams.
You have Shanny, go get Brieda (Also noted they spent big on McKinnon and tried to get Bell, so he wants to put money at the position.) Saying that Shanny apparently recognizes the importance of a RB in his system so he is willing to throw money at the position. 

Until Smith/o-line/Tanny can prove they can consistently win with just anyone back there, I won't be willing to just throw Henry to the trash heap. 

[titans0021]

The basis for the RBs are meaningless talk is pretty easy to understand. Even the best running teams average more yards per pass attempt than they do run attempt, thus making running the ball the inferior choice in almost all situations. Given Henry’s overall lack of impact in the passing game, it makes him even tougher to grade analytically.

It’s why I’m open to the idea of not keeping Henry. Because there’s certainly validity there. Hell, I could really see an argument for chasing after a guy like Austin Ekeler.

But the arguments have no affect on the reality of the situation. Vrabel has made it clear how he feels and Arthur Smith is certainly not an analytic kind of coordinator. Our GM has invested heavily at RB and WR. Henry fits what they want from an offense and what they want in a RB. If you can’t accept that, you’re in for disappointment.

[TitanLegend]

14 minutes ago, titans0021 said:

I’m here for the arguments for why we should let Henry walk. I’m certainly not excited to pay him $15 million per year and think there’s probably a legitimate argument to be made for running the offense through Tannehill, AJ, CD, Hump and Jonnu. I also think it’s important to recognize that we do not have an analytical based coaching staff or FO and there’s no chance we let Henry walk.

With that said, I’m not quite sure I’m there yet with football analytics. The complete disregard for skill position players really only works with elite QB play and/or design and scheme (and even that only carries you so far, see 2019 Rams). If running backs are completely meaningless, which is certainly the argument if Henry is worth .1 WAR as the league leader in yards and yards after contact, and receivers are shiny hood ornaments (as I’ve been told 100 times), I wish you the best of luck in building a consistently competent offense without a generational QB or a generational coach, which, you know, are pretty hard to find.

There is more to it than just numbers, which is why I added the very last tweets there. Getting rid of a team leader is a real thing that analytics doesn't capture. Getting rid of the guy the team just watched you ride to an AFC title game is a real thing that analytics doesn't capture. While analytics show us that play action even with a garbage run game is extremely effective, I think most would agree that if you have an elite back it makes it even more effective/troublesome for the defense.

The issue with running backs and what not is not that they're entirely useless. It's their cost vs their use. You have a finite amount of money as an NFL franchise. You have positions, that regardless of how high or low your opinion of Henry(or great running backs in general) is, we should all be able to agree are more important. QB is more important. O-line is more important. Pass rush is more important. This is something that both general NFL think-tank and analytics seem to be able to agree on. And in a world where QBs are making at least 30+ a year, tackles(even not very good ones) are making 14-15+ a year, guards are starting to get to that 14+ range as well, centers are slowly moving up(the top ones are in the 10-11 range now), elite pass rushers are breaking the 20+ mil contracts, even just good ones are commanding 14-15+, etc, etc it gets harder and harder to come to terms with paying a running back 13-14+ as well.

I think cost vs use is a particularly big problem with Henry, however. Henry isn't a capable pass catcher and is not a very good third down back. That is a rather significant issue. You're not only going to shell out a significant portion of your cap space to a position we already can agree is far less important than quite a few others on the team, we're going to do it for a guy we can't even consistently use on every down?

As much as Vrabel and Smith love Henry, on third down even they're like "yeah..we can't have you out there, we're gonna have to throw Lewis out there instead". And if Lewis were some elite 3rd down back that'd be one thing, but we're chosing a Dion Lewis that has been largely useless since coming here over a guy we want to pay 14 million? Really?

If we were drafting a QB and had a QB on a rookie contract the next 4-5 years maybe you could justify it, but as it sits right now, I'm not sure how you can.

[KingTitan]

9 minutes ago, titans0021 said:

The basis for the RBs are meaningless talk is pretty easy to understand. Even the best running teams average more yards per pass attempt than they do run attempt, thus making running the ball the inferior choice in almost all situations. Given Henry’s overall lack of impact in the passing game, it makes him even tougher to grade analytically.

It’s why I’m open to the idea of not keeping Henry. Because there’s certainly validity there. Hell, I could really see an argument for chasing after a guy like Austin Ekeler.

But the arguments have no effect on the reality of the situation. Vrabel has made it clear how he feels and Arthur Smith is certainly not an analytic kind of coordinator. Our GM has invested heavily at RB and WR. Henry fits what they want from an offense and what they want in a RB. If you can’t accept that, you’re in for disappointment.

I'd more than welcome that transition. 
QB centered offense, except....oh. don't have the QB or the scheme. 

Thinking about it, I actually think it would be cheaper to have the RB to be the main cog of your offense and find QBs with certain skills that fit the offense.  Pay a RB about $40 million opposed to a QB $145 Million? Keep getting mid-level QBs?  Could revolutionize the league! lol 

1. Stronger than average arm.
2. Willingness to make a tight throw.
3. Mobile
4. Selfless
5. Throw on the move.
6. Won't hesitate..

Those are things Tanny has done. He wasn't a master at reading defenses. He didn't fool DBs. He was great with our scheme, that doesn't call for the QB to be Manning. It calls for him to be at the least.....Tanny. 

It's not sexy but i can see Vrabel and company saying we need a stronger defense, run game that can feed a play action, with a QB that can make throws when called upon. 

[TitanRedd]

53 minutes ago, TitanSS said:

@TitanLegend I don't know if putting numbers behind it will help most fans with Henry. Most fans are not approaching it as "What is best" and looking for information to form their decision.

Instead, they have already decided their fan favorite is the best and are trying to find any information that supports what they want. Affirmation over information.

If Henry would accept a contract in their low range, 10m, I could get behind that a lot easier than anything like Zeke's contract. He is a good back, but I don't like paying RBs even that much.

For Tannehill, I was expecting a 4 year deal at 27.5m/yr just based on Jimmy G, so 27m sounds about right.

Selena deal is big because he got an extension added on to a high cap #, due to the fact he was a #4 overall pick & still has years left on his deal.  I’m cool with paying him 12 mill annually & about 40-50 mill guaranteed